The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Web Monkey]

If you choose another agency, unless you open your own store, you have to travel to get the cert, and then you will have a significantly harder time getting students, as well as the headaches of arranging your own pool rentals, buying your own gear to let students use in class, etc.

It is a vastly more expensive proposition.

You're comparing being an instructor with running a SCUBA School/Shop.

Assuming you were going to open a shop in either case (or teach for a shop in either case), I don't see any huge additional expense associated with doing a proper job when training the students.

Terry

 

[Diver0001]

Just a couple of observations:

- I know this will be hard for some of you to understand because in decades of moaning about it, you still haven't understood this minor point..... but Agencies don't *teach* diving. Instructors teach diving. Why is it possible for one instructor to give a good course and another instructor to give a lousy course using the same framework? Maybe some instructors are better than others. Maybe some students are better than others. Maybe it's people work and where people are at work there is a natural variance in results.

- You really can't look back after you have 100-200 or 2100 dives of experience and say "wow.... I wish I had known then what I know now", which is the source of a lot of the moaning. Of COURSE it would be nice to come out of the course with 100 dives of experience but it's completely unrealistic.

- Instructors and agencies are judged by how their students look. (ex)Students are at some point, just divers and some of them are poor divers and don't improve much over time. Some of them show bad judgement, some of them are reckless, some of them are stupid, have bad memories, don't care about all teh BS that we find very important. Some of them find bouyancy control a continuing struggle. Some can't remember their tables, some never practice skills, some of them may even become *worse* divers than they were as their physical or mental health changes over time......... but the first thing people say when they see these divers is "who trained that guy".

I know that standards aren't perfect and I'm as aware as the next guy that agencies don't really listen to their instructors and/or clients when it comes to criticisms about the standards.... but my point here is this:

Agencies are one piece of the puzzle. No more.

R..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Summary of the last several pages of this thread:

DCBC, Jim Lapenta, NWGratefulDiver, TechBlue, Walter, and Web Monkey: We need better diver training out there, because PADI isn't doing an adequate job.

DCBC, Jim Lapenta, NWGratefulDiver, TechBlue, Walter, and Web Monkey: We need better diver training out there, because PADI isn't doing an adequate job

I'd prefer to speak for myself, thank you.

I'm not saying "we need better dive training out there" because of ANYTHING that PADI is doing. Frankly, I don't CARE what PADI is doing. My only comment about PADI is that they mislead people by giving their courses the same title as something that their competitors already created at a higher level ... as evidenced by the examples I gave. Misleading your customers is reprehensible, I don't care WHAT product you're offering.

As for what I'M saying, I think I stated it pretty clearly ... I am not trying to change the world. I'm just interested in doing the best I can to influence the divers I can reach in a positive way.

I didn't get into teaching scuba to improve the worldwide state of dive training ... I got into it to help the people who come to me to be better divers.

Can y'all wrap your head around that concept?

Diving isn't a business to me ... it's a passion. I didn't get into it to make money ... I already have a job that pays me pretty well. I got into teaching to help those who WANT my help to become better divers. I'm not interested in changing the state of dive instruction ... I'm only interested in changing individuals ... and ONLY those who choose to accept the help I can give them.

So please ... PLEASE ... stop speaking for me. Because, frankly, you aren't doing a very good job of it.

Fantastic, you guys have identified a problem you agree on. Now, what? You've whined here about how god awful you think PADI is. You've been doing that for years. Has it changed anything?

Dude, I think it's YOU who has the reading comprehension problem. I don't waste my time whining about PADI on the Internet. That's a complete waste of time because they not only don't care what I have to say ... they don't even care what their own instructors have to say. Their business model works for them ... that's all they worry about.

So no ... I don't whine about PADI. I haven't been, as you say, "doing it for years" ... I haven't been doing it at all.

And I think I HAVE changed some things in diving ... for those divers who are interested in the changes I can help them make. That is really all I care to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

[deleted]

 

[Kingpatzer]

You're comparing being an instructor with running a SCUBA School/Shop.

Assuming you were going to open a shop in either case (or teach for a shop in either case), I don't see any huge additional expense associated with doing a proper job when training the students.

Terry

Start up costs are different. Once that's happened, running the shop is the same.

 

[Crush]

I'd prefer to speak for myself, thank you.

And I think I HAVE changed some things in diving ... for those divers who are interested in the changes I can help them make. That is really all I care to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I apologize. Your SB id has been removed from the offending post. As an additional precaution against insult, I have PMd all other users for/of whom I presumed to speak to draw their attention to the post and to offer to remove (with apology) any references to them.

Summary of responses to summary at 1540 MST: references to two user id's removed (one PM request, one inferred from post); one PM indicating user id reference can remain.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Dude, I think it's YOU who has the reading comprehension problem. I don't waste my time whining about PADI on the Internet. That's a complete waste of time because they not only don't care what I have to say ... they don't even care what their own instructors have to say. Their business model works for them ... that's all they worry about.

Bob, I am speaking to a collective group that I perceive to spend an inordinate amount of the time posting about how bad PADI is. If your actions do not fit that description then I am not speaking about you.

It was poor judgement of me to include mpetryk's "summary" of other people's views when trying to respond to what I felt was a mocking post. In hindsight, I should probably not have responded at all, and if I did, I should not have quoted any more of his post than was necessary -- which did not included his first paragraph referencing you and others.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You're comparing being an instructor with running a SCUBA School/Shop.

Assuming you were going to open a shop in either case (or teach for a shop in either case), I don't see any huge additional expense associated with doing a proper job when training the students.

Terry

Start up costs are different. Once that's happened, running the shop is the same.

No ... providing quality education costs more. That's why so many shops don't do it. If you want the big classes, you can't offer a quality class ... because people won't buy it. They see you offering an OW class for $375, and they see your competitor offering a class with the same title for $129 ... which one do you think they're going to take?

They won't ask why your class costs three times as much ... or even if they do ... even if you explain it to them ... it won't really mean anything. They won't care that you offer more pool time ... which is expensive ... or additional class instruction ... which is more in-depth ... or that you use higher-quality gear that you make sure fits your students properly. None of that will mean anything to them. What means something to them is the cost, the time investment, and the name on the C-card when it's all over.

It won't be until they get frightened or frustrated underwater after the class is over that they'll look back and wish they had considered the more expensive option ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Just a couple of observations:

- I know this will be hard for some of you to understand because in decades of moaning about it, you still haven't understood this minor point..... but Agencies don't *teach* diving. Instructors teach diving. Why is it possible for one instructor to give a good course and another instructor to give a lousy course using the same framework? Maybe some instructors are better than others. Maybe some students are better than others. Maybe it's people work and where people are at work there is a natural variance in results.

- You really can't look back after you have 100-200 or 2100 dives of experience and say "wow.... I wish I had known then what I know now", which is the source of a lot of the moaning. Of COURSE it would be nice to come out of the course with 100 dives of experience but it's completely unrealistic.

- Instructors and agencies are judged by how their students look. (ex)Students are at some point, just divers and some of them are poor divers and don't improve much over time. Some of them show bad judgement, some of them are reckless, some of them are stupid, have bad memories, don't care about all teh BS that we find very important. Some of them find bouyancy control a continuing struggle. Some can't remember their tables, some never practice skills, some of them may even become *worse* divers than they were as their physical or mental health changes over time......... but the first thing people say when they see these divers is "who trained that guy".

I know that standards aren't perfect and I'm as aware as the next guy that agencies don't really listen to their instructors and/or clients when it comes to criticisms about the standards.... but my point here is this:

Agencies are one piece of the puzzle. No more.

R..

Quite so ... there are perhaps 8 or 9 instructors in the Seattle area who I will refer potential students to. They pretty well cover the gamut of agencies ... NAUI, PADI, SSI, SDI/TDI, and UTD. The one thing they all have in common is that they turn out quality divers.

It ain't the agency that does that ... it's the instructor who has both the chops and the desire to teach people how to dive properly ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

The agencies create training materials and print cards. What kind of stuff are you thinking of?

Terry

If quality is an issue that is a matter of real concern over people's safety and lives (as some have claimed), and if a plurality of instructors in those agencies where the instructors at least claim to be listened to (NAUI, SEI, GUE, and others), then come together and form a coalition. Spend some money to put together some marketing materials and develop a campaign to get the word about quality out to the public.

Figure out how to get shops to transfer away from PADI. Figure out ways to provide incentives for PADI instructors to change allegiances. Figure out how to address the underlying marketing imbalance where PADI has a monopolistic hold on diver certifications.