The Philosophy of Diver Training

[JeffG]

But the student is mistakenly under the impression that he will be taught everything he needs to be safe. This is debatable.

They don't know what they don't know.

Many of us come to look at the training as lacking because we are viewing it in hindsight. The new customer doesn't have this perspective. Unfortunately, thats what makes a full featured class hard to sell. Its tough to convince someone that you are comparing apples to oranges.


(Its the same hill to climb as what the GUE OW course will have/has.)

 

[DCBC]

It is not that the standards are classified, from what I undertood from Walter's post they just don't want to do a public apples to apples comparison because they do not look good when the truth comes out.

You're right. They can't compare apples-to-apples; they don't have the same fruit in their system. This is why the mislabeling of their programs causes even more confusion and concern.

 

[DCBC]

They don't know what they don't know.

Many of us come to look at the training as lacking because we are viewing it in hindsight. The new customer doesn't have this perspective. Unfortunately, thats what makes a full featured class hard to sell. Its tough to convince someone that you are comparing apples to oranges.


(Its the same hill to climb as what the GUE OW course will have/has.)

Right on the mark! Then you get a whole lot of these "graduates" taking a superior attitude, with some of them looking down on the other certifications. In reality, these other divers have in some cases twice their training. It's a matter of people just not knowing the reality of the situation.

 

[TechBlue]

You're right. They can't compare apples-to-apples; they don't have the same fruit in their system. This is why the mislabeling of their programs causes even more confusion and concern.

That's why I am curious would a non American based operation displaying an unbiased apples to oranges comparison have the same legal ramifications that Walter and Eddie had to deal with?

It would be quite a project but it seems we have a few volunteers and of course some of the agencies should be quite happy to see everything out in the open so to speak

 

[Kingpatzer]

No work at all. They began a campaign t . . . They marketed intelligently.

An effective marketing campaign takes work and effort. It takes more than complaining.

Nothing is stopping the other agencies from doing this as well, but they are at a disadvantage if it comes to cross-certifying a PADI instructor. PADI's standards are the lowest for all certifications including instructor. It was much more difficult to go from PADI to NAUI (for example) than the other way around. I do think however that agencies are dropping the ball when it comes to cross-certifying instructors from a similar organization.

It's possible to pick major metro areas, fly in instructors, PAY THEM, and spend the class and pool time to certify whoever wants to be cross-certified from PADI at low cost. Will that cost something up front? Sure. But it will be paid back over time through new students, instructor fees, etc.

They could work with shops to provide materials at cost for the first year, lower or drop cert costs for shops that offer their courses.

They could do a lot, but they aren't (or if they are it is so under the radar that no one knows they're doing it, which pretty much amounts to the same thing).

But few people are willing to complain about their agency and fellow instructors not doing enough to correct this problem that they seem to think is so serious that they have to raise it here on a daily basis. It's madness.

If SEI, NAUI, GUE, and others want to change the way training is done in a meaningful way then partner up and start a marketing campaign. Start helping stores change over. Start doing SOMETHING.

 

[Kingpatzer]

???

You're losing me here.

If I open a shop in East Nowhere, affiliated with SCUBA R Us, and teach an "as long as it takes" OW class, how does that change costs? (mine or the students)?

If you want to teach in some place where other agencies are scarce, you can get your instructor cert and have students waiting for you when you get a job or contract to a shop for the cost of the IDC and IE if you go PADI.

If you choose another agency, unless you open your own store, you have to travel to get the cert, and then you will have a significantly harder time getting students, as well as the headaches of arranging your own pool rentals, buying your own gear to let students use in class, etc.

It is a vastly more expensive proposition.

 

[Crush]

Summary of the last several pages of this thread:

DCBC, Jim Lapenta, TechBlue, Walter, and Web Monkey: We need better diver training out there, because PADI isn't doing an adequate job.

-: Quit your jobs, sell off your wealth, leave your families and wander the earth teaching scuba diving. If you refuse to do this, don't complain about PADI.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Summary of the last several pages of this thread:

DCBC, Jim Lapenta, NWGratefulDiver, TechBlue, Walter, and Web Monkey: We need better diver training out there, because PADI isn't doing an adequate job.

Kingpatzer: Quit your jobs, sell off your wealth, leave your families and wander the earth teaching scuba diving. If you refuse to do this, don't complain about PADI.

Ah, the wonders of intentional misrepresentation.

Luckily, it only requires a modicum of reading comprehension and intellectual integrity to see how full of it your comment is.

. . . if the folks care about change then they need to be calling their agencies daily demanding action. Those in leadership positions in the agencies need to be talking with each other and forming coalitions. Those who want change on the scuba discussion boards need to be talking and brainstorming about how to address change.
. . .

Excepting the very wealthy, individuals can not fund marketing changes alone. Individuals can not afford educational booths at shows alone. Individuals can not host dive experiences at local attractions alone. Individuals can band together and work for common causes and effect large scale meaningful change.

So it's more like:


DCBC, Jim Lapenta, NWGratefulDiver, TechBlue, Walter, and Web Monkey: We need better diver training out there, because PADI isn't doing an adequate job


Kingpatzer: Ok, great. You have host of organizations and agencies out there that you folks represent as instructors and hold leadership positions within. Why aren't these bodies being directed by their members to pool resources, educate and market to the public, address market penetration, and otherwise doing something about the underlying business conditions that ensure a continuation of the status quo? All I see is you guys spending a lot of energy here complaining about PADI.

Fantastic, you guys have identified a problem you agree on. Now, what? You've whined here about how god awful you think PADI is. You've been doing that for years. Has it changed anything?

 

[Crush]

Kingpatzer: Quit your jobs, sell off your wealth, leave your families and wander the earth teaching scuba diving. If you refuse to do this, don't complain about PADI.

Kingpatzer: That is not what I wrote - read my posts! Quit your jobs, sell off your wealth, leave your families and wander the earth teaching scuba diving. If you refuse to do this, don't complain about PADI.

 

[TechBlue]

Ah, the wonders of intentional misrepresentation.

Luckily, it only requires a modicum of reading comprehension and intellectual integrity to see how full of it your comment is.





So it's more like:


DCBC, Jim Lapenta, NWGratefulDiver, TechBlue, Walter, and Web Monkey: We need better diver training out there, because PADI isn't doing an adequate job


Kingpatzer: Ok, great. You have host of organizations and agencies out there that you folks represent as instructors and hold leadership positions within. Why aren't these bodies being directed by their members to pool resources, educate and market to the public, address market penetration, and otherwise doing something about the underlying business conditions that ensure a continuation of the status quo? All I see is you guys spending a lot of energy here complaining about PADI.

Fantastic, you guys have identified a problem you agree on. Now, what? You've whined here about how god awful you think PADI is. You've been doing that for years. Has it changed anything?

So obviously you are happy with your choice of becoming a PADI AI and you are happy with your choice of agency because you agree that more business can be generated by providing dumbed down certs for occasional divers, even though the dumbed down cert has no expiration and these poor ignorant divers are out there thinking they know what they are doing and are in absolute ignorant bliss-excellent choice on your part, good for you!

What you are proposing that we do to change the whole diving world against an established 500lb gorilla would be fine if you had an unlimited budget and nothing else to do, I think it's time you got real instead of whinging on about people that do care about the quality of training and telling them to stop whining, we are doing something about it what are you doing?

Complacency and diving do not mix