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No, reduction of in-water ability requirement,

You're right! You did point that out. Out of curiosity, and I do believe you, can anyone tell me what agency went from making you swim without fins to swimming with fins?

failure to enhance the level of student confidence & familiarity with equipment,

Is that just an opinion or can that actually be measured in some way?

reduction or elimination of rescue skills,

So who/agency use to teach basic rescue skills in the OW course and no longer do?


reduction of dive planning & air-consumption skills

And your evidence is?

and buddy breathing

This one has been established.


These have reduced the ability of the trainee to possess a higher degree of safety when diving unsupervised with his/her buddy imo.

And it seems like a lot of this thread comes down to that very fact. A lot of this thread is people's opinions and there is nothing wrong with that at all. It's good we have different opinions or these threads would die a quick death. But many times, little of what is said is based on facts.
 
OK.

Then so far it appears that "Buddy breathing" is the only thing anyone has come up with that was taught that is no longer taught/required that may make diving less safe and even that is being debated by some.

Maybe folks will come up with more!

It gets more complicated than that.

During an air sharing ascent, the out of air diver probably will not have the ability to use the auto-inflator until reaching shallow water when the remaining small pressure of air becomes unlocked by decreasing pressure. Until then, the out of air diver will have to orally inflate the BCD for buoyancy. Even a direct ascent to the surface may result in a diver venting too much air from the BCD and needing to replace it. Buddy-breathing is also a great building block skill that allows divers to learn to time removing a regulator from the mouth under stress of an air-sharing ascent. At PDIC, we teach buddy-breathing to include buddy-breathing BCD ascents in which students exhale into the BCD rather than into the water column, while passing a second stage back and forth, to maintain correct buoyancy while venting from the BCD on the way up. As a training exercise, done repeatedly, it helps because a diver who can pass a reg while buddy breathing and while using only the BCD to maintain ascent rate and buoyancy control will be more likely to be able to remove an octo from his mouth and add air to his BCD during an air sharing ascent or return swim if needed.

Building block skills and training beyond the level expected during game day will make dealing with a true emergency easier. So, it is not just what is taught, but how something is taught, and the proficiency to which it can be performed that is important.

Flooded mask and no mask skills are important because divers in close proximity in a stress situation like an air share, are more likely to experience a flooded or lost mask than when further apart during normal diving. Rather than becoming an emergency or a reason for panic, a flooded or lost mask is merely a nuisance situation that should easily be managed. While rare, it is possible. Why let a nuisance become a disaster? Plus, by training under such conditions, the management of a classic out of air or low on air situation that requires air sharing with an octo will be more easily handled with a greater degree of proficiency.

In my advanced, leadership and tech classes, all I need to do is ask students to share air with an octo and hold a 3 minute safety stop at 15 feet and it drives the point home to everyone from OW divers to course directors that they cannot proficiently share air.

All scuba skills should be performed with both a flooded mask and without a mask. This is not always taught.

PDIC OW divers can perform a double no mask, BCD non-kicking ascent, while buddy-breathing. Why? Mostly so they can easily share air when they have masks and the octo is working. But, also, so that the worst case scenario can be managed. Most of my tech classes are filled with PADI and NAUI DM's and instructors and so far not a single leader from these agencies has been able to share gas at a 15 foot safety stop for 3 minutes without a line.

That's not a condemnation of the agencies as much as it is saying that the most critical emergency skill we have - sharing gas - even with an octo - is not over learned, over trained, and developed to proficiency even in dive leadership.

Try this drill with your buddy:

At 30 feet, signal out of gas and manage the emergency. Using a stop watch, thumb the dive and time your ascent and your safety stop to the surface without using a line. Try to maintain horizontal trim and stay in one spot facing each other without using your hands or swimming in circles around the water column. Your entire ascent should take exactly 4 minutes - 1 minute for the total ascent distance 30 feet at 30 feet per minute and 3 minutes at 15 feet for the safety.

Your proficiency at this will tell you where your skill level for air sharing lies.

Extra credit: Once you've dialed-in this skill, remove a mask from the out of gas diver and do the exercise. Right hand to right hand to keep the left free to adjust buoyancy, guide the buddy to the surface. Thumb up = add gas. Thumb down = dump gas. Hand moving side to side with palm flat = level off. Do this with both divers being out of gas and with no mask. Now, return to practicing this exercise with both diver's being able to see. Have you improved?

Graduation: Repeat this exercise with both divers without a mask. Count in "Mississippi's" like in touch football, "One Mississippi, Two Mississippi, Three Mississippi ... " until you reach 30 Mississippi. This should be about 15 feet. Count 3 minutes of deco with the leader extending the pinky of the buddy upward to indicate deco and then extend 1, 2 or 3 fingers to indicate number of minutes remaining. After reaching the surface, check your time. Have another buddy (preferable with rescue, DM or instructor training) act as lifeguard and referee. Practice until it's proficient.

Now, repeat the regular air-sharing exercise with both divers having a face mask. How did you do?

Grad School: Repeat air sharing exercise while buddy-breathing with a single primary. Practice until proficient. Return to air sharing with octo. How did you do?

Post Graduate Work: Repeat buddy-breathing exercises with one diver without a mask and with both divers without masks. Practice until proficient. How did you do?

How do you now feel about your ability to share air?

The goal is two divers able to ascend face to face horizontally without sculling hands or feet on time and hold a safety stop exactly at 15 feet without a line. Imagine how easy it will be to do in real conditions with acceptable margins of buoyancy and skill error now.

The PADI and NAUI leaders I mentioned, were humbled, practiced this and now teach it to their students.

"A very smart man changed the way I dive and teach," remarked one guy who was a NAUI DM in my class, who is a NAUI instructor today.
 
You're right! You did point that out. Out of curiosity, and I do believe you, can anyone tell me what agency went from making you swim without fins to swimming with fins?

It's my understanding that PADI accepts either 200m without mask/snorkel/fins or 300m with.

Re: running away from dive tables. I really think this is a mistake. The issue isn't just that a diver can determine the pressure group resulting from a prior dive, it is also the ability to plan a range of repetitive dives. Sure, the computer will do the planning just as well but the diver doesn'r really get the same situational awareness they might have as they calculate the RNT versus depth for future dives. And the eRDP doesn't even provide RNT!

It was always my practice to calculate and write on my slate the NDL for all rec depths. I NEVER knew how deep the next dive might be so I had to be prepared for all depths. Given a bottom timer, depth gauge with recording needle, an SPG and my dive slate, I was good to go.

Removing the dive tables is one place where I really believe the agencies have 'dumbed down' the program. If a diver is too stupid to be able to learn and use dive tables, they really should be playing tiddly-winks. This is one change I just don't accept!

Yes, I know the arguments re: multi-level diving. I just don't care about them.

Richard
 
I think my instructors at the LDS took some initiative. They made us to a 400m swim w/o fins and mask or wetsuits and then tread water for 15 min right after the last person finished. I never actually questioned that the requirement was less.
 
Can anyone tell me what agency went from making you swim without fins to swimming with fins?

For the following, I'll use ACUC (Canada, a member of RSTC) as an example. I'm not sure of the date but the current requirement is:

A. 275 metres / 300 yard swim using mask, fins and snorkel, with no time limit, and a 10 minute survival swim/float without mask, fins, snorkel or other swimming aid. If an exposure suit is used, the wearer must be neutrally buoyant at the surface, or:

B. 180 metres / 200 yard swim, without swimming aids, using any swimming strokes and with no time limit, and a 10 minute survival swim/float without mask, fins, snorkel or other swimming aid. If an exposure suit is used, the wearer must be neutrally buoyant at the surface.

This option is at the instructor's discretion.

Previously (before joining RSTC) had their own standard. ACUC's (Canada) previous requirements were:

1. Unassisted swim of 360 metres / 400 yards;
2. Unassisted 15 minute survival swim;
3. Unassisted underwater swim of 25 meters / 25 yards;
4. Unaided weight recovery from 10 to 15 feet.

Is that just an opinion or can that actually be measured in some way?

Yes this can be measured. Previously a diver had to successfully Doff and Don his equipment (removing his equipment in 10 to 15 feet of water, returning to the surface and returning to the bottom to recover his equipment. The diver was blacked-out and placed under minor harassment during the excercise.

Bailouts were also necessary. These have been removed from the training program.

So who/agency use to teach basic rescue skills in the OW course and no longer do?

Rescue skills are now restricted to tows and tired diver assists, Previously a rescue course was included in the open water program that included surface (panic), sub-surface (unconscious) and sub-surface (conscious) rescues.

And your evidence is?

Part of the evaluation required an ability to cover many of the things now listed on the Divemaster program. This included reading the dive-site, recognition of hazards and emergency planning (as appropriate to the location). Air consumption calculations were a requirement for the log book and based upon these the diver would have to project his/her air consumption for a different depth. This is no longer required.


And it seems like a lot of this thread comes down to that very fact. A lot of this thread is people's opinions and there is nothing wrong with that at all. It's good we have different opinions or these threads would die a quick death. But many times, little of what is said is based on facts.

There is a problem knowing something for a fact and proving it to someone else over the Internet. I can't prove to you even who I am and that I'm a certified instructor. I can give you an instructor number, but I can't prove to you that it's mine. The point is that even if someone does prove it, you may choose not to accept it as fact. It's a never ending circle.

It is FACT not fiction that diving standards have dropped over the years. Before the training program I described required a minimum of 40 hours of training. Now no minimums are even listed. The minimum requirements are the only thing that is required. The instructor is allowed to add whatever he wants to the program. My program still runs 50 hours, but it's not required.

The fact that I don't have to spend a minimum amount of time on the program tells me something from a business perspective. It eliminates a restriction. Things are being designed to be this way rather than ensuring that more training is given; less is the order of the day.
 
It's my understanding that PADI accepts either 200m without mask/snorkel/fins or 300m with.

Thanks! I don't like the idea myself of being able to do it with mask/fins/snorkel.


Removing the dive tables is one place where I really believe the agencies have 'dumbed down' the program. If a diver is too stupid to be able to learn and use dive tables, they really should be playing tiddly-winks. This is one change I just don't accept!

When I took my OW course I naturally had to learn the tables for my 4 open water dives. I also used them a week later when I went to the Florida springs with my buddy for our first adventure on our own. About a month later I was going to the Keys and before I went my instructor was showing me the latest in technology and that was a Sherwood Source computer. I think they had been out about a year or so but it was the first I had seen them. After he showed me all it would do I knew I had to have one so I bought my first dive computer and never used a table again. To be honest, I'd have to go back and freshen up on them to be able to plan a dive by them again.
 
Hey, When I learned how to scuba dive I had to walk through 3 feet of snow, uphill, both to and from the frozen pond wearing only my swim suit and carrying all my gear which was then used to chip the ice.... (OK, honestly, I did have to walk uphill both ways and I did have to walk through snow -- it was darn cold in January in the Palouse.)

I'm sorry y'all, but is it OK for me to just flat out disagree with what some of you say are the minimum education a "scuba diver" needs to go look at the pretty fishies still seen at Molokini?

Even in the PADI system, IF the student and instructor are doing their jobs, at the end of the OW class, the student will be able to do the various skills in "a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner" consistent with the abilities of an open water diver (NOT a technical diver but the "pretty fishies" diver). And what are those skills?

Putting your gear together including checking your buddy's gear
Entering and exiting the water
Maintaining buoyancy control in the water column
Controlling one's BC (with, or without, the use of the power inflator)
Sharing air and ascending whilst doing so
Clearing/replacing one's mask
Simple compass navigation
Maintaining sufficient buddy contact at all times
and on.

Why isn't the entry level diver who can "reliably and comfortably" able to do these things a sufficient "product" of anyone's Open Water (i.e., beginning) class?

I certainly didn't expect my "bunnies" at the end of their beginner ski class to ski black slopes and I don't think anyone else did either. But I did expect them to be comfortable skiing on bunny slopes and having a good time doing it.

Why isn't it OK to expect "bunny" Scuba Divers to be comfortable diving on "bunny" dives and having a good time doing it? And, at least in this naive neophyte's opinion, the PADI OW class standards should prepare the newbie to do the bunny dives comfortably and with a huge grin.

BTW, if you are going to demand Buddy Breathing, then Do It Right and demand that it be done with a two-hose regulator, not a wussy single-hose -- after all, that's the way I WAS TAUGHT and if it was good enough 40 years ago, it is good enough today!
 
I'm sorry y'all, but is it OK for me to just flat out disagree with what some of you say are the minimum education a "scuba diver" needs to go look at the pretty fishies still seen at Molokini?

I guess because we don't all prepare divers to dive in the tropical waters of Maui.

Why isn't it OK to expect "bunny" Scuba Divers to be comfortable diving on "bunny" dives and having a good time doing it? And, at least in this naive neophyte's opinion, the PADI OW class standards should prepare the newbie to do the bunny dives comfortably and with a huge grin.

Agreed, but those "Bunnies" should be prepared to dive the bunny slopes in their local area. There's a big difference from Whistler and the skiing sites of North Dakota. :-)

BTW, if you are going to demand Buddy Breathing, then Do It Right and demand that it be done with a two-hose regulator, not a wussy single-hose -- after all, that's the way I WAS TAUGHT and if it was good enough 40 years ago, it is good enough today!

I was taught this way as well (44 years ago), but diving can be done safely with a single or double hose. I don't think that this is necessarily the case with a non-swimmer who's wearing mask fins and snorkel to pass the swim test; do you?
 
Hey, When I learned how to scuba dive I had to walk through 3 feet of snow, uphill, both to and from the frozen pond wearing only my swim suit and carrying all my gear which was then used to chip the ice.... (OK, honestly, I did have to walk uphill both ways and I did have to walk through snow -- it was darn cold in January in the Palouse.)

I'm sorry y'all, but is it OK for me to just flat out disagree with what some of you say are the minimum education a "scuba diver" needs to go look at the pretty fishies still seen at Molokini?

Even in the PADI system, IF the student and instructor are doing their jobs, at the end of the OW class, the student will be able to do the various skills in "a reasonably comfortable, fluid, repeatable manner" consistent with the abilities of an open water diver (NOT a technical diver but the "pretty fishies" diver). And what are those skills?

Putting your gear together including checking your buddy's gear
Entering and exiting the water
Maintaining buoyancy control in the water column
Controlling one's BC (with, or without, the use of the power inflator)
Sharing air and ascending whilst doing so
Clearing/replacing one's mask
Simple compass navigation
Maintaining sufficient buddy contact at all times
and on.

Why isn't the entry level diver who can "reliably and comfortably" able to do these things a sufficient "product" of anyone's Open Water (i.e., beginning) class?

Because those are the minimal skills that an uncertified "resort" diver, who must dive under the direct supervision of an instructor, is supposed to have according to the training I have had, the standards of my training agency, and my personal experience as a diver of 27 years.

PDIC would not recognize, nor would I recognize, that person as a "scuba diver" certified or otherwise.

Technical diving is:
1) Gas mixtures other than standard compressed air
2) Dives deeper than 130 feet
3) Dives into overheads
4) Dives involving mandatory stage decompression
5) Dives involving rebreathers, deco or stage bottles, and gas switches

Nowhere in the definition of technical diving does it say that "no mask" skills are technical. If a diver's first experience without a mask is in a tech class, I challenge that his training at the recreational level was not thorough.

If recreational divers are expected to make safety stops, the ability to share air and make these safety stops is not a technical skill.

PDIC's "complete course concept" means that anything that an open water level diver is able to do, and should do, within the limits of his training, should also be done proficiently.

A diver is a diver ... pretty fishes diver, technical diver, or otherwise. "Pretty fishes" are no excuse to dummy down standards any more than "technical" is an excuse to increase standards. A true standard is the ability to manage all problems expected to be encountered at one's level of training safely and proficiently.

My 14 year-old niece has not had spelling classes like I had in the same school district when I was her age. She is a horrible speller and laughs about it, yet she is a very bright girl with a mom who is a child psychologist and a dad who is a math teacher. She should be spelling proficiently at her grade level. If her future college professor has to help her with middle school spelling, it doesn't mean that middle school spelling is a skill to be learned at the college level.

Just because technical instructors have been forced to make up for deficiencies in basic skills, doesn't mean those skills are technical.
 

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