Diving Education Today

[DCBC]

I realize that PADI and NAUI aren't the only two players in the training game but are no doubt the two largest and train the most divers. I was hoping either some current or former instructors could give specifics on how they have seen the requirments "dumbed down".

The specifics that you are asking for are difficult to duplicate, as they are organization dependent and the standards have been changed several times. I held instructor ratings with both NAUI and PADI. At one point the minimum training times were 27 hours for PADI and 34 hours for NAUI. It's easy for you to compare this with what is available today.

Sorry I can't be more specific, I haven't memorized all the standards and all the changes that have occurred in the 7 different certification organizations I've taught through, over the past 37 years I've been teaching. This is however factual information and not opinion.

The standards have dropped in many areas, but I tried to keep in-mind your criteria that the information withheld would provide a hazard to the student. I did not include areas such as knowledge of underwater physiology, physics, etc. which were in far more detail than they are today.

 

[SolarStorm]

1. Reduced the level of in-water competence required.

Generally this decreased the swimming distance and some organizations allow the student to accomplish the assessment by using fins.

Comment: The amount of swimming ability required, is directly proportional to the environment where you dive. It is my experience that a lower degree of in-water ability of a diver is directly proportional to the panic time ratio. It seems reasonable that a person who is strong in the water is mentally and physically better prepared (all other things being equal) than a poor or non-swimmer in the water.

I agree with this. Swimming skills need to be increased. In the resort course I took, we went out in water we probably shouldnt have (looking back now). We all got in the water with 3 - 4' choppy waves. Everyone did a quick descent except for one lady who was a poor swimmer, AOW certified no less. The waves very quickly put her in trouble. 30 years ago I was a lifeguard, and between the last instructor and myself we managed to get her into the boat. (my instructor/budy did the descent without me to get out of the waves!)

This was a person who was moved along as a diver, yet the minute she got out of nice conditions she paniced. She couldnt think to add air to her BCD (she forgot before entry because she wanted to get off the rocking boat she said) Her reg was flopping around, she entered with her snorkle so she could save air?

I KNOW if the swimming skills reqs were higher, she would not have had a certification and therefor gotten in trouble.

I have seen most issues occure because someone has entered beyond their skills. She felt her skills were upto this because she had a certification that said she was a good diver. This may be true, but you still have to get to the site. So maybe the whole dive planning thing needs some work too.

 

[openmindOW]

Can anyone specifically give examples of what use to be taught in an Basic OW course that is no longer being taught that without that knowledge, you have put the new diver in some type of jepordy? (He/she is less safe) For example, what has NAUI/PADI or whomever dropped from their course that they taught maybe 20 years ago and no longer include in todays course?

* Buddy Breathing. Effective June 2010, we PADI Instructors may no longer teach it to OW students and we can no longer grade DM candidates on BB.

* The requirement to learn dive Tables has been droppped by PADI. I personally believe that this constitutes a reduction in standards, but I respect the contrary view held by some poster on SB. SSI got rid of it a long time ago. I suspect that the reason SSI did that was to help shops sell computers but I admit I could be wrong..

* My understanding is that at some Instructor development centers one can become an Instructor with only 60 dives. It used to be 100.

* I will bring up on-line ed. I think that there is a danger that on-line ed can be done poorly, although I respect the view that on-line courses can be done well.

 

[DCBC]

With all due respect, in my sons and wifes training there were several 17-18 year olds that were on the swim team and swam VERY well. But two of these kids dropped out due to not being comfortable "underwater". The instructor tried to talk them into staying in the class, but they would not have it. This was in the second and third week of training that they dropped out.

What I am talking about is what is required by the certification agency. Often Instructors will increase this requirement. For example, I require my students to swim 400 meters of the pool unassisted (front/side) and another 200 meters (back). An certification agency may only require them to swim 200 meters with fins, or 100 meters freestyle. If that agency lowers these standards by 50%, it will not affect my requirements. On the other hand, if an Instructor taught to the minimum requirements of the agency, an excellent swimmer qould still only swim the minimum length.

The in-water assessment has generally been lowered over the years. Some would argue that this allows more people experience diving and this should be encouraged. "Your diving not swimming! Who cares if you can't swim?" I disagree.

With all of my sons and wifes BOW training (YMCA for all but one which was SSI) these skills were done. The air consumption was also covered and this was even on their final test on how to calculate it. Keep in mind that this was 5 different classes and 4 different instructors. They even had to swim 200 yards in the pool buddy breathing along with 200 yards air sharing (off the octo) also. I am going to assume that this was the standards, for the instructors had a skills check off and these were marked off as they completed the skills correctly. This was one of the tougher skills for them along with the 50' underwater swim for the mask and snorkel retreival.

I too would be interested in know what specific standards had changed from the past to present.

Some organizations (like LAC) have increased their standards over the years and continue to do so. Skills such as buddy breathing have been rejected by one agency and kept by others. So this is really agency dependent.

 

[openmindOW]

There is no reason to practice buddy breathing for other than 'because I can'.

Richard, I respectfully disagree.

BB is in my view valuable for OW divers to learn. It also important for Dive Professionals to know.

This may be worthy of a separate Thread.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I have seen most issues occure because someone has entered beyond their skills. She felt her skills were upto this because she had a certification that said she was a good diver.

There are people with AOW certs who go into caves. Does that mean the standards for AOW aren't high enough? Or does it mean that those who do that are not adequately and realistically judging their own competency levels and/or the conditions they are choosing to dive in?

No matter what the standards are set to, people will dive beyond their capabilities. It is very common for people to overestimate their own competencies. It is actually normative for them to do so.

It is not possible to stop people from diving beyond their training and abilities. And that is not a valid argument for changing standards. The standards (at least for PADI) are predicated on the presumption that the diver will follow their training and not dive in conditions or areas here skills that exceed their training and experience are required.

To say that the standards aren't high enough because people do not follow the standard required behavior is to do nothing more than declare that all standards are inadequate.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Richard, I respectfully disagree.

BB is in my view valuable for OW divers to learn. It also important for Dive Professionals to know.

This may be worthy of a separate Thread.

I have to side with Richard on this one. It is not a necessary skill for entry level divers. Or really any diver who is not in a situation where a direct, non-deco ascent is possible.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Let me see if I can turn this back to diver education for a moment.

I read on here all the time where people say that todays training has been "dumbed down" or something to that effect. So here is a question for some of you folks who have been in this business/sport/hobby for many years.

Can anyone specifically give examples of what use to be taught in an Basic OW course that is no longer being taught that without that knowledge, you have put the new diver in some type of jepordy? (He/she is less safe) For example, what has NAUI/PADI or whomever dropped from their course that they taught maybe 20 years ago and no longer include in todays course?

I'm not really talking about how the course material is taught (online vs class at a shop etc.) so much as what is being taught.

Growing up, I remember having fire drills in schools, stickers on the bedroom windows to help firefighters identify the rooms where a child might be, and a family action plan in case of a fire. We didn't have smoke detectors until I was in high school. We had a fire extinguisher located at the top of the basement stairs. The school never caught fire. Our house never caught on fire. None of my friend's or family's homes ever caught on fire. My grandparent's home had an electrical fire after they died when my sister and her husband were having the house renovated. No one was home at the time. A neighbor spotted smoke and called the fire department. They put it out quickly and did more damage making sure they got it all - which was covered by insurance.

Since most people's homes and schools rarely catch fire, is it safe to say we no longer need family action plans, tot saver stickers on kid's windows, or fire drills? After all, smoke detectors and home security systems provide early warning in the event of smoke or fire and should give a family ample time to get out, right? Or, are fire drills, tot rescue stickers, and the practice of family emergency plans still valid?

In diving, equipment has made us safer much like smoke detectors and home security systems, but we never know what might go wrong or where the "fire" will be located. I remember being taught to have a primary way out of the house, a back up way out, and a third way in case I was cut off from my secondary escape in the event of a fire.

PDIC skills usually teach 3 ways of doing something using the same philosophy. For example, 3 ways of regulator clearing: 1) Hum into the regulator to clear it. 2) Push the purge button to clear it. 3) Swish, by using the tongue as a piston to pump water out in case you've exhaled all your air and the purge button is covered by a diver's hand. In case you are out of air: 1) Share air with an additional second stage. 2) If the additional second stage is damaged, filled with debris, or not working switch to buddy-breathing with the donor's primary regulator. 3) If the donor cannot buddy-breathe or the divers lose control of the buddy-breathing situation, then an emergency ascent is warranted.

Of course, skills like tank valve breathing and breathing from the BCD auto/oral inflators have been left out. If a donor with a non-working additional second stage (octo) cannot buddy breathe, it would be easy to use the oral/auto inflators as a third regulator.

For some, this might be overkill. For others, it is a third way out of a fire.

The question is should I tell my students not to dive with divers who lack the skill to buddy-breathe?

I don't know. Would I want my kid, if I had one, to know 3 ways out of a neighbor's house in case of a fire if he were sleeping over at a friend's house? Would I feel comfortable letting him stay with a family who told me that they only know how to escape through the front door, but that I shouldn't worry - they have smoke detectors and a home security system?

Even people living in apartments often have a fire escape outside a window.

This tells me, as a diver, we should have 2 if not 3 ways out of a jam.

With the elimination of a skill such as buddy-breathing, in the event of a problem with an additional second stage, a diver's secondary resort is an emergency ascent which would be like jumping from the roof.

Think about each skill that you learned as a diver. You should be proficient in 2 ways of accomplishing the purpose of any task if not 3 ways.

You never know when you'll need it. It's nice to be prepared when fire does strike so you don't get burned.

 

[BDSC]

OK.

Then so far it appears that "Buddy breathing" is the only thing anyone has come up with that was taught that is no longer taught/required that may make diving less safe and even that is being debated by some.

Maybe folks will come up with more!

 

[DCBC]

OK.

Then so far it appears that "Buddy breathing" is the only thing anyone has come up with that was taught that is no longer taught/required that may make diving less safe and even that is being debated by some.

Maybe folks will come up with more!

No, reduction of in-water ability requirement, failure to enhance the level of student confidence & familiarity with equipment, reduction or elimination of rescue skills, reduction of dive planning & air-consumption skills and buddy breathing were the few I mentioned. These have reduced the ability of the trainee to possess a higher degree of safety when diving unsupervised with his/her buddy imo.