Diving Education Today

[MauiScubaSteve]

editart of this might be a cold vs warm water thing as well. If I lived in Hawaii and was in the water all the time I'd be spending some time just swimming around for fun as well. Up here I will be spending zero time swimming around in the water for fun.

I am headed to the Rockies for 6 weeks and as stated above I don't swim train even though great swimming water is less than 5 minutes from my door. I swim enough to do some regular cliff diving, about as much as the mostly untrained local kids swim. I will be swimming at least 3 times per week in Los Alamos, as well as hitting the high dive A LOT. That would also happen in Alaska as long as there is an indoor pool!

 

[gcbryan]

I am headed to the Rockies for 6 weeks and as stated above I don't swim train even though great swimming water is less than 5 minutes from my door. I swim enough to do some regular cliff diving, about as much as the mostly untrained local kids swim. I will be swimming at least 3 times per week in Los Alamos, as well as hitting the high dive A LOT. That would also happen in Alaska as long as there is an indoor pool!

OK, then swimming is obviously something that is an enjoyable activity for you. You aren't arguing that everyone else should swim as much as you if they don't enjoy it as much as you just because they're a diver are you?

I used to go to the pool quite a bit for a while. I found it somewhat enjoyable for a while but then just had enough. My point is it's a separate activity.

 

[TMHeimer]

Well that's what I meant to stress. It's a separate activity. Or as I put it, a sport (which is at times competitive). So, I'm doing well with all the other DM components except the one swim. Maybe it's because I had literally done no pure swimming for 39 years and completely lost my form, or maybe I'm just not the good swimmer I thought I was back then. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Kingpatzer]

The training time is usually around 12 weeks

Which is why your solution is not one.

The only hope you have of seeing that becoming normative is if the government gets involved. In which case you won't be allowed to teach as you like but will have standards dictated to you.

Keep complaining and you might be unlucky enough to get what you want.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

You aren't arguing that everyone else should swim as much as you if they don't enjoy it as much as you just because they're a diver are you?

My lead up posts were concerning a tangential conversation within the threads total conversation; dive leader swim fitness. Please try to keep up.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

You should be capable of rolling into the water and knocking any of those off with no preparation, no tension and no fuss, any time of day or night. If you can't there's always the next largest sporting goods industry above diving ... boccie ball, no swimming required.

There are dive leaders who can't do this??? :shocked2:

 

[DCBC]

Which is why your solution is not one.

The 12 week period I mentioned was based on a 2 hour pool session a week for this time period 24 in-water pool hours plus dry time and open water. Certainly the same training could be condensed into one 24 hour day if the participants had the physical and mental stamina for it.

You say that my solution is not one, but it has been one for thousands of divers. So how do you explain that? It is a solution, but like I stated, if the training is over 12 weeks, it may not be the best solution if someone wants to go south to dive and needs "quick" certification. One element of the population may just plan to learn a skill-set well over the winter. In Canada at least it can give a person an opportunity to do something over the winter and be better prepared to face an OW in the North Atlantic in the Spring. Like I said, to each his own.

Some people wish only to attain whatever is the minimum. This includes the minimum amount of money spent, the minimum level of commitment, the easiest, and the fastest. Others want to learn at a more expansive level. The other side of the coin is what the Instructor wishes to accomplish, regardless of the market. If that Instructor didn't have interest from students, s/he couldn't teach anyone, as no one would be interested in receiving instruction.

I have never had this problem. There are other Instructors and dive shops in my area, which operate less inclusive programs. They are viable businesses, so the only thing I can conclude is that different people have different goals. Some find the minimums insufficient for them or their loved ones. So do I.

 

[DCBC]

I have no issue with the swim requirement for DM or Instructor! They SHOULD be able to swim long distances. Heck, they should know how to dive! Were it up to me, a diver could not become an instructor without 500 dives on 6 continents. A DM with 60 dives is complete nonsense! An instructor with 100 dives in the same quarry is similarly not awe inspiring.

Sounds good to me, but the 6 continents part may be a little harsh for some Instructors.

But the recreational, resort level, diver has no such requirement. Everything is done for them. The descend on a line and ascend the same way. The DM makes sure they get back to the boat or the boat comes after them. Either way, endurance swimming isn't a requirement. I prefer to keep it that way.

Richard, none of my past comments have been directed against a person who takes a resort course. They are not expected to be competent: just take my hand, relax, breathe, go for the ride and have fun. My comments are directed towards the OW diver: who is suppose to be competent, to dive unsupervised, is certified to do so, but can't.

 

[DCBC]

Well, it took my brother (the 66 yr. old who still swims 2 miles in the ocean and recently won gold for his age group) about 2 years to get to the point where he could do a mile--during the end of a period of about 10 years of constant pool swimming. He, like myself has been as comfortable in the water as anyone ever has since maybe age 8. In fact, I was briefly on the H.S. swim team until it conflicted with the JV basketball team. That was in 1970. Prior to certification 4 years ago I had snorkelled since age whatever in any kind of condition you could name--rough surge, savage currents, etc. -- I always thought of myself as a water person.

That's a remarkable accomplishment for a 66 yr. old. Good for him!

I don't know what the problem is with swimming. When I went into the Navy Diver Program the farthest I ever swam was 600 meters in a pool. Other trainees were in the same position. 100% of the class qualified on a 2 mile open ocean swim in 2 foot swells (which was later increased to 5 miles near the end of the program) within the first 3 weeks. If you're reasonably fit and can swim, the rest is conditioning and mental attitude. I'm sure my time today wouldn't be very good at 56, but I know it's doable. Like Thal says, if you can swim and time and stroke aren't being scrutinized, what's the big deal?

Being comfortable in the water is a key factor when training a diver. If a diver is comfortable the "time-to-panic ratio" is increased. In my experience, this does in-fact make a big difference to a diver's survivability.

 

[rstofer]

Sounds good to me, but the 6 continents part may be a little harsh for some Instructors.

I guess my point is that instructors in one environment are not always qualified for another. It's pretty easy to teach in south east Asia. It's probably a little more difficult in the Pacific Northwest. But even the PNW instructor has no real frame of reference if they start to teach in SE Asia. Coral versus kelp, different hazards, different marine injuries, etc. Certainly the change from T-shirt to 7mm wetsuit is a rude shock for the diver trained in SE Asia! I don't recall a single mention of wetsuits when I learned to dive - in SE Asia.

Richard, none of my past comments have been directed against a person who takes a resort course. They are not expected to be competent: just take my hand, relax, breathe, go for the ride and have fun. My comments are directed towards the OW diver: who is suppose to be competent, to dive unsupervised, is certified to do so, but can't.

But it's only a few of you that are saying they can't dive unsupervised. And that's just your opinion of divers 'in general'.

Every single instructor certified their OW students as capable of unsupervised diving within the limits of their training with a buddy of similar training in an environment similar to their training. Or words to that effect... And tens of thousands do it every day without incident.

So, who's problem is this? Either there is no problem and we're just burning bandwidth (my opinion) or an entire legion of instructors just flat-out lied.

In other threads even the most critical of instructors finally admitted that it isn't the agencies' standards that are the problem. It is the instructors' interpretations of the standards that is the issue. The strict requirements of the standards would lead to qualified graduates. The issue is the interpretation of the word 'mastery'. Are 2 or 3 iterations of mask replacement sufficient to show 'mastery'? Beats me! I'm not an instructor.

So, let's shift focus to the fact that, if divers are unskilled, the blame lies squarely at the feet of the instructors. Not the divers, they don't know squat. Not the agencies, the standards are adequate. It is the fault of the legions of crappy instructors. Well, assuming that there is a problem...

Why are instructors so poorly paid? Because it takes little talent to become an instructor and the market is overly saturated. Zero to hero in 100 dives! Yep! That clearly indicates "professional". It takes at least 6 years of college to get into the profession of engineering (eg MSEE). I don't see how scuba instruction can rise to the level of "profession" in the wildest imagination.

If we had 90% fewer instructors and they actually were proficient, things might improve (if they actually need to). The reason Navy divers (and commercial divers) are better trained isn't because the students are smarter, it's because they have better instructors. And hundreds of hours to get it right...

Fire them all! Cancel every instructor certificate! Increase the requirements for instructors and have them judged by an independent panel of experts. People from out of town; a long way out of town. There should be teaching professionals on the panel and they should have NO involvement with scuba diving. Professional educators only. The review process would include observation of an entire OW training sequence - start to finish.

Throw them all out and start over! Produce instructors with real credibility.

I think NAUI used to do something like this (without the teaching experts). I seem to recall my instructor telling me of his performances before the review panel. I think he mentioned 'grim' several times. But he was honest!

Richard