Diving Education Today

[DCBC]

Oh, I am not in disagreement with the idea that divers should be able to swim and be capable of self rescue as well as assisting others! I also don't argue that there isn't a lot of pretty poor teaching out there. But I can't lift a 150 lb person and carry them (they tried to show me how in my Rescue class, but I couldn't pull it off). And I swim slowly.

I'm another one in the camp, though, that if I had gone down to the shop and found out it would take me six weeks to learn to dive, and cost me $1000, I would have given up the whole concept. I do believe, because I have seen it done, that you can teach reasonable basic skills in existing OW classes, if you know what they are, and if you understand how they can be taught. I have seen my husband turn out certified divers who I completely expect will go on to have a lot of safe fun diving. I've also seen him agonize over not passing people he didn't think would meet that standard.

You can teach well within the existing framework. It's just sometimes more difficult.

Thanks TS&M. For my courses, divers pay a club membership fee of $25 per year and purchase training materials and certifications at Instructor cost. Pool is available 2 hours per week and more time can be arranged if required. Dives normally run twice a week, but for some weeks in the winter this only happens once a week. Unlimited air is included at no charge (Fleet Diving Unit Atlantic). So the cost is nowhere near $1000.

The training time is usually around 12 weeks, which is inconvenient if you want to get trained quickly to go on a vacation. Our divers are those who want to dive the waters here. If we go south, the diving is much easier with far fewer hazards.

Often students that get certified through a shop don't have Mentors to help them gain experience. Experienced buddies are usually available in a Club environment. Other activities and gatherings outside of diving provide another dimension as well.

It seems that your husband is a conscientious Instructor that is willing to fail students, as required rather than moving them through the training system. The industry needs more Instructors like him.

 

[rstofer]

The problem with "You have shortness of breath, angina, light-headedness, something and choose to dive. Ok no problem" is that in a diving accident, the person who ends up dieing is not only the original victim, but the rescuer! If the diving leaders are willing to accept this risk (and any resulting liability), that's up to them. Personally it's not something that I see as either responsible or professional.

I dive with family. They all know that I am a heart attack waiting to happen. Sixty four years old with coronary artery disease and, oddly, my doctor is ok with my diving. Even my cardiologist just nodded his head when I mentioned it. That's not like a guarantee, just an acknowledgement that it is an acceptable risk.

When they put in a stent 6 years ago, I retired. I now live a life of leisure, diving when the opportunity presents itself. All of the dives are beach entries with long surface swims. I hate it. But I do it because the rest of the family wants to dive.

You wouldn't say that if you lost a loved one to a diving accident, that the cause of death was poor instruction; now would you?

As a Junior Open Water diver, my grandson is limited to 40' and we keep him in the 30' end of the ocean. His father is a Rescue diver and a VERY fit former Marine. Somehow, I think he will be quite safe. I don't waste a moment thinking about it.

Personally the 1 in 200,000 dives statistic is horse ****. Even if the number of dives could be established, which it can't (has anyone asked you how many dives you've done last year? No one has asked me). The statistics register deaths not near misses or injuries. Both Trace and I have reported making rescues weekly. You say the training is good enough, we disagree.

You feel that if these divers die, it's there own fault. I believe that this is a shared responsibility. If health care is or becomes government controlled, Society will pay the bill (as it does now in Canada). That makes it a social responsibility. People can't act anyway they like and expect Society to pay for it. It's the same as driving a car at 100 mph through a small town; it's dangerous to others. You may accept the responsibility for your own death, but others can get hurt as well and that's not your call.

I am 100% AGAINST socialized medicine. Neither the Canadian nor the British plans are worth a damn. Horror stories of rationing and lengthy waits for appointments abound. We will, no doubt, have the same results!

The system we have in the US today is perfect. When I need something I go over to Kaiser and they take care of it. I can get an appointment the same day if things are really serious and the 'clinic' has every diagnostic tool known to man. All under the same roof! For the real emergencies, I just present my card at any hospital. Simple as that!

In any event, every Rescue diver knows better than to create a second victim. So, if attempting to rescue me presents any risk whatsoever, skip it! I have lived by my own decisions for a very long time and it has worked out pretty well so far.

I don't buy into this "society's interest" crap. That can be extended to make just about anything illegal. Firearms comes to mind. Yet firearms are essential to maintaining freedom.

Scuba diving has risks, society would be better served if we prohibited it!

Dirt bikes, skydiving, automobile racing, mounaineering, climbing, just about anything you can come up with is not in society's best interest. If reducing the cost of socialized medicine is the goal, all of these sports need to be excluded! And we have to have compulsory exercise! All neatly recorded in certified log books...

Automobiles are another: eveybody should live in a high-rise over the top of their workplace and never have to commute more than a few hundred yards! Or they should take a cab or public transit. What a load of crap! The US is primarily a 'flat' model. We don't live anywhere near where we work and public transit is a joke or dangerous!

No one is suggesting puch-ups, so be realistic. This is not a matter of exclusion. If you want to learn to fly an airplane and have a heart condition, you may lose your license. Is this all about elitism? Obviously not. If you want to be a lifeguard and they ask you to swim 600 meters, is this elitism? No.

In the case of flying, the medical requirement isn't to protect the pilot, it is to protect people on the ground.

In the case of a lifeguard, it is a JOB requirement. Recreational diving isn't a JOB. There is no reason somebody needs to swim several hundred yards to dive off a boat, descend the anchor line, swim around the reef, ascend the anchor line and get hauled back on a boat. It just isn't an endurance contest. Anyone can do it and many thousands do it every day!

It's the same reason why standards are high in major universities. It inspires people to strive for excellence. Now many people just want to live in a "good enough" world.

But many do! Diving just isn't that important to many divers. They can take it or leave it and the less effort the better. So what? It's just a hobby and not even an important hobby. Maybe it's just something to do on vacation. Warm water, boat entries, good visibility - what's not to like? But take it serious? You must be joking!

If people want to excel, go for it! But don't try to mandate it for others. Or make it a condition of undertaking the sport. Diving just isn't that important.

Richard

 

[TMHeimer]

rstofer, I agree with you on a lot. Divers should be responsible for themselves. Aside from needed dive flag rules in some places, I feel scuba should not be regulated by government at all. I agree about the swim requirements--I must complete a 400 meter for DM and will. There are 3 other stamina requirements, but swimming is 50% stamina and 50% skill, as it is a sport. My brothers are competitive swimmers, the oldest still winning medals at 66. MANY divers disagree with me. But, like, rule #2 of Rescue Diver is always have fins, mask, snorkel ready. Regarding socialized medicine, I kind of agree. Taxes are much lower in the U.S. than here in Canada, so one should keep some of the extra money to buy a health plan (unless covered at work). The only thing I kind of disagree with is the mountain of paper work that's created in some cases (like when all my family -(parents, uncles--all Americans) got ill and passed on. It's also real nice to show up at a doctor's office or hospital here and just flash my health card. Prescription drugs, though aren't covered unless given at a hospital. Of course, those on welfare in the U.S. get free medical anyway, no? (mabe not the upscale hositals). And, yes, the waits here in Canada can, at times be frustrating.

 

[rstofer]

I agree about the swim requirements--I must complete a 400 meter for DM and will. There are 3 other stamina requirements, but swimming is 50% stamina and 50% skill, as it is a sport.

I have no issue with the swim requirement for DM or Instructor! They SHOULD be able to swim long distances. Heck, they should know how to dive! Were it up to me, a diver could not become an instructor without 500 dives on 6 continents. A DM with 60 dives is complete nonsense! An instructor with 100 dives in the same quarry is similarly not awe inspiring.

But the recreational, resort level, diver has no such requirement. Everything is done for them. The descend on a line and ascend the same way. The DM makes sure they get back to the boat or the boat comes after them. Either way, endurance swimming isn't a requirement. I prefer to keep it that way.

Richard

 

[TMHeimer]

Yeah, I agree about the resort level diving. Hope I can scrape together the $ to experience that. 6 continents for an Instructor? They would be rich instructors. I can agree with the 500 dives, but agencies don't because there wouldn't be enough Instructors to keep the business moving. The "swim" thing has been discussed to death on SB. Another DM requirement is an 800 meter with fins, mask & snorkel--very practical for a Rescue. Great idea-maybe it should be even a longer distance. But swimming--when would a DM or any diver be without fins handy? I've asked this before around SB and still await someone giving me any possible scenario.

 

[Thalassamania]

It's not a question of testing you at a set distance for a scenario, it's a matter of seeing how comfortable you are in the water, seeing if you are, in fact, a water person If you are staying awake nights wondering if you will be able to complete a short swim, perhaps a leadership role in diving is not a good fit for you, 400 yds, 600 yds, 800 yds, what does it matter? You should be capable of rolling into the water and knocking any of those off with no preparation, no tension and no fuss, any time of day or night. If you can't there's always the next largest sporting goods industry above diving ... boccie ball, no swimming required.

 

[TMHeimer]

Well, it took my brother (the 66 yr. old who still swims 2 miles in the ocean and recently won gold for his age group) about 2 years to get to the point where he could do a mile--during the end of a period of about 10 years of constant pool swimming. He, like myself has been as comfortable in the water as anyone ever has since maybe age 8. In fact, I was briefly on the H.S. swim team until it conflicted with the JV basketball team. That was in 1970. Prior to certification 4 years ago I had snorkelled since age whatever in any kind of condition you could name--rough surge, savage currents, etc. -- I always thought of myself as a water person.

 

[gcbryan]

All you need to be is comfortable in the water. You don't need to be an excellent swimmer unless you are a lifeguard or unless you simply like swimming as a pastime.

Regarding making diving easier today than in the past. That doesn't particularly affect me at all. I climbed Mt. Rainier many years ago. I did a route that was longer than one of the other more popular routes. The commercial guide service (expensive) also takes care of your food for you and you stay in a cabin at 10,000 feet the night before the last push.

We did none of these things. However, it didn't affect my enjoyment at all to know that some did summit this way. There are others who have done much harder routes and in much more challenging conditions than I did. That doesn't concern me either.

It's the same with diving. If people are enjoying themselves why should we worry that they did it "the easy way"?

People are different and do things for different reasons.

Formal education in a particular subject is not always better than informal education. It just depends on the circumstances and on the person.

I looked into taking a few courses with The Mountaineers (a local group). I checked into this after I had already climbed Mt. Rainier twice. To be able to climb with this group I would have had to take courses that would take 3 years. Some of the course were prerequisites, were full a season in advance, etc. I didn't want to take scrambling (climbing up a slope unroped but where you might have to use your hands on occasion) just to be able to take several other course so that one day I could climb something that I'd already done.

In some cases there are excellent climbers who take these classes and in other cases there are many people who need hand holding and need a certain set of rules to follow.

Diving is the same. There are excellent divers involved in dive clubs of course but I've found that there are many who can't dive in any other way. They are sometimes the least proficient divers who need someone to follow or to plan the dive for them.

Looking at an accident and saying that it is easily prevented is one thing. Saying that it would have been prevented if only more time was spent in class is other.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I always thought of myself as a water person.

And yet you seem to be stressing over the swim requirements of PADI DM???

I did my DM ~ 3.5 months after full shoulder reconstruction, at the age of 42. I was pissed off at myself for getting one 4, and we did all the requirements in one morning, back to back to back. At least I beat all the kids!

I am now 50 and I have not been swim training at all for years, just snorkeling and diving, but I am willing to bet $1000 dollars that I could get 5's on all of them this afternoon, even though I am watching football with a cold frosty right now!

That is the kind of water person I see when Thal types.

 

[gcbryan]

It's not a question of testing you at a set distance for a scenario, it's a matter of seeing how comfortable you are in the water, seeing if you are, in fact, a water person If you are staying awake nights wondering if you will be able to complete a short swim, perhaps a leadership role in diving is not a good fit for you, 400 yds, 600 yds, 800 yds, what does it matter? You should be capable of rolling into the water and knocking any of those off with no preparation, no tension and no fuss, any time of day or night. If you can't there's always the next largest sporting goods industry above diving ... boccie ball, no swimming required.

If you're going to be an instructor and be around untrained people all day then I agree with you. If you are just interested in being a diver then it is important to be comfortable in the water but it's not necessary to be a particularly good or practiced swimmer.

You should be able to swim and you should be comfortable in the water. More than that is just a personal choice or a personal interest. It's diving not swimming.

editart of this might be a cold vs warm water thing as well. If I lived in Hawaii and was in the water all the time I'd be spending some time just swimming around for fun as well. Up here I will be spending zero time swimming around in the water for fun.