Diving Education Today

[Slonda828]

Not that it will matter, but why don't we create a petition to someone (DEMA, PADI, NAUI, etc.) requesting that they raise the bar? I am sure it is the equivalent of telling a pimp to get higher quality hookers and then not expecting a slap in return, but meh, whatever.

 

[DCBC]

All the industry did was divide the program up into modules and offer them piece-meal. It's the diver's responsibility to understand the scope of their ignorance and get additional training.

Hey Richard. You're correct training was divided piece-meal.

In the mid to late 80's I was contacted by PADI. At the time I owned a LDS which was a PADI Training Facility. I was told that I was doing it wrong. I could make more money by teaching to minimum standards.

It was explained to me that if I sold a student an OW program, Advanced, Rescue and Deep specialty, I could quadruple my income. Why teach them this in one course? That's why the system was set-up the way it was. To generate mote money.

Everybody wins this way. PADI would sell more publications and 400% more certifications. The student would get the same training. The shop would rake in the cash. Don't you see!?

I asked PADI only one question. After the first program, the student would only be partially trained. How about if they didn't come back? PADI just told me not to worry about it; that's the students choice.

The problem I have with this is that as an Instructor, people come to me and place their trust in me. I can't just pass this off; I take this responsibility seriously. I had to make a choice; which for me was either to sell my soul to the beast for profit, or do the right thing. I chose the later.

 

[DCBC]

This is not directed toward any one person and it's not meant to be disrespectful either but consider why some threads are in Whine and Cheese and why others aren't. I'm not sure what the distinction is. I generally take subjects that are important to me or are of interest to me to Whine and Cheese if it's just something that bothers me but isn't productive in the general forums.

How is this subject, which has been debated over and over and will never reach a conclusion, one which should not be in Whine and Cheese. Training is not going to change one way or the other regardless of how many posts are made on this subject in this forum

I really am interested in the logic of posting the same thing over and over as if posting the same thing a few more times might result in a different outcome. It's a discussion board and everyone has the right to discuss anything they want to but everyone has the right to continue to butt their head against a cement wall and most would chose not to.

Recreational divers are not going to be taking the same courses as commercial, military, or scientific divers for one thing. Another point to consider is that at a certain point experience outweighs education so if experienced divers are dying in great numbers (which they're not) then past education may not have much to do with it.

This is like discussing accident reports when someone died holding their breath. Then come the lectures with the justification that "if only one life is saved it will have been worth it". This is largely nonsense in my opinion. This is justification to lecture forever on any subject that one choses to lecture on.

Some degree of accidents is inevitable. We accept it in driving why don't we except it in diving?.

The beauty of a discussion board is that you don't need to read, or participate in any discussion if you don't want to.

 

[DCBC]

Not that it will matter, but why don't we create a petition to someone (DEMA, PADI, NAUI, etc.) requesting that they raise the bar? I am sure it is the equivalent of telling a pimp to get higher quality hookers and then not expecting a slap in return, but meh, whatever.

Yes. I suspect that many certification agencies would look at this in a similar way as the government receiving a letter to lower taxes. The certification agencies are in the business of selling certifications and publications. More is better from their perspective. The trend will unfortunately continue.

 

[Trace Malinowski]

I know that this is off topic, however a 600 yard swim vs the old 800 yard swim is kind of a weaker standard from the "old days". So the ULSA did lower thier standards.

Yes, the standards would seem lower, but as discoveries in exercise science improve, it may be possible to decrease distance, but also increase the speed that work must be performed. For example, a 600 in 10 minutes or less would be more challenging than 2 miles straight with no time limit. Like Thal says, "smart" training doesn't have to be "tough" training, but I don't think the industry is committed to either at this point. Since we've never defined what I, Slonda, or Thal ever meant by "tough" anyway, those in opposition can only imagine what we meant by that. The course structure that I posted is how I learned and basically what PDIC has been teaching ever since I started with them. The absolute minimum that an instructor can run a PDIC OW course is 7 days. Five days of class and pool and 2 days of open water. Working at PDIC HQ, we would normally run 6 - 8 sessions at other facilities for class and pool and 8 - 10 in our indoor pool at PDIC HQ. Then, open water dives would be conducted by different PDIC instructors in different areas to expose the student to different types of local and regional diving. We also try team teaching to reduce instructor dependency. No one is being forced to do push-ups, but students are expected to improve every skill by repetition. Doris Murphy, PDIC president, made us swim laps in snorkeling gear every class to strengthen our legs when wearing fins. Now, divers just have to do the 200 yard swim in a course once and use a split fin to compensate for a weak kick. Starting a class with a 200 - 500 snorkel then having the divers float their tanks on in the water and then ending the class with a 3 minute water tread in full gear and no air in the BCD isn't exactly ... :inquisition:

I apologize if I came off condesending. That wasnt my intentions, even though it came out that way after reading my post.

Your apology is accepted. In message boards, the intellectual sparring and Socratic debate without personal interaction, often is like a game of ping-pong played with logic rather than a ball. It often becomes a game. We try to best our opponents based upon facts presented and inventoried at the time. We also forget that we are sometimes playing against real people who have feelings and emotions rather than against the computer or just a myriad of profiles. Emotion also tends to make arguments heated at the time and people slam one another harder online than they would in person. Also, because tone of voice is lacking, sometimes the way we write carries unintended insult and one sentence can be taken different ways by different readers. You and I would probably have more in common in person than online. I spent some time living in Dade County in Coral Gables, hanging out with the guards from the Venetian Pool, training to work for Dade County as a lifeguard at the Tamiami pool, the atoll pool and Crandon Beach before taking a job that popped up in the Cayman Islands as a scuba instructor.
People who meet me think I'm from "The Valley" in California or some stoner surfer because of the accent of voice. They are shocked to find a brain behind it. I'm just passionate about diving and diver training. While it may seem like I'm Mike Nelson on the Net, in real-life I'd probably come off more like Keanu Reeves or the turtle from Finding Nemo asking, "Why did you lose your dive buddy?" rather than "Do you have your exit buddy?"

I don't know about that, but back in the late '60s you needed to make a rather long swim (Manhattan Beach to Redondo Beach) staying in the surf break the entire way to qualify as an LA County Beach LifeGuard.

What was the distance swam? It may had been a long swim to some and not much of a challange to others. Long distances is subjective. As you know, if you dont run a lot, a 5K may very well be a long run. If you run marathons, a 5K is pretty short.

I am going to guess that Thal will say 2 - 2.5 miles.

Fair points. I've kept my mouth shut on this topic for the last few days.

The broad topic of "training quality" is too broad. Perhaps it makes sense to narrow it by dividing the broad topic into the following categories of training:
* Entry Level Recreational (single tank)
* Recreational Advanced (single tank)
* Scientific Entry Level
* Commercial
* Recreational Divemaster
* Recreational Instructor


Another interesting question is this: Should There Be a Recreational Certification At All? I think some posters here may question whether there should be, and that's fine. I'll respect that opinion, although I personally think there should recreational certifications.

IMHO, the important questions facing us are these:

1) Standards for Entry Level Recreational (IMHO too low with some agencies)

2) Standards for Recreational Professionals (IMHO way too low most agencies)

Just my opinion.

I think that diving needs to be all-inclusive. I love love love the fact that we now have Dive Heart, the HSA, and the IAHD! I think everyone should be allowed to dive, but the training needs to reflect the level of competency expected from a certification. As I've said before, why do we ask handicapped divers to give us their best that they can to overcome their disabilities, but we ask less and less of the 100% able-bodied to earn their certs with each passing year?

It would be nice to pull out a C-card and get to do the dives you are trained to do. In lifeguarding, we hire 15 year-old to work professionally as rescuers and we trust them to prevent drownings and save lives with CPR, First Aid, AED and O2. These are kids! I always asked my young lifeguards how is it that they can come work on the beach with me and make me proud every day with their professionalism, but they get in trouble at home and school? Yet, in diving, a 41 year-old agency training director who is a cave, trimix, wreck penetration, and lifeguard instructor cannot rent a tank to go shore diving from a shop in Bermuda or is told to not penetrate a wreck in 115 feet of water in the St. Lawrence by the captain?

I think a cert level should exist for everyone who wants to dive, but each level needs to really mean something. That way, we can get the freedom from dive operators to get the adventure back. Divers with 30 C-cards might not get themselves hurt, but they should be stellar divers by that point and strong divers and swimmers.

Rescue, DM, instructor and tech levels should be taken VERY seriously - more seriously than they are today. It's not just the accidents that define diving. The near misses DAN never hears about change the sport. How many times does a dive boat operation need to rescue tech divers who can't swim back to the boat in current before they say, sorry no tech diving? Or, how many times do instructors get in trouble the same way and need a DM to swim them a lifeline? A few occurrences of this and when you pull out your instructor card to prove you can handle a night dive, the shop balks because they know instructors aren't much different in ability than any other diver they've had to pluck from the sea.

Folks,

If you believe the quality of scuba training is so low that action should be taken, quit wasting time on scuba board and write the various industry training organizations requesting improvements or contact your legislative representatives requesting government regulation.

Besides, I could use a job in the Dept of Scuba Safety.

I attend RSTC meetings representing PDIC that have been set up by the industry for the sole purpose of preventing government regulation. PADI, SSI, SDI, IDEA, PDIC and the YMCA (now SEI and not currently attending) have been determining minimum training standards as a collective body for years. The little agencies usually push for higher standards at these meetings only to be defeated or surrender to the larger agencies. If you think things are bad now, they'd be far worse with government intervention.

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't remember exactly, but it was measured in miles; and you had to stay in the surf line, trainers on their boards out beyond the break made sure of that (and stood by just in case anyone had problems). If the exact distance is critical, look at a map.

 

[Thalassamania]

The real issue, in my mind, is the conflict of interest between teaching and selling. I do not buy my skis from my ski instructor, though I may ask for advice. The trend in diving has been to integrate gear sales and instruction, and I think that is wrong ethically. But I have faith that the internet will, in the near future, solve that particular problem, while undoubtedly creating others, since profit will always seek out opportunity and those who are most concerned with profit seem to typically be those least troubled by ethical considerations.

 

[gcbryan]

The beauty of a discussion board is that you don't need to read, or participate in any discussion if you don't want to.

I did participate in a way that other's have not. Discussion is about keeping it varied.

 

[dadediver]

Yes, the standards would seem lower, but as discoveries in exercise science improve, it may be possible to decrease distance, but also increase the speed that work must be performed. For example, a 600 in 10 minutes or less would be more challenging than 2 miles straight with no time limit. Like Thal says, "smart" training doesn't have to be "tough" training, but I don't think the industry is committed to either at this point. Since we've never defined what I, Slonda, or Thal ever meant by "tough" anyway, those in opposition can only imagine what we meant by that. The course structure that I posted is how I learned and basically what PDIC has been teaching ever since I started with them. The absolute minimum that an instructor can run a PDIC OW course is 7 days. Five days of class and pool and 2 days of open water. Working at PDIC HQ, we would normally run 6 - 8 sessions at other facilities for class and pool and 8 - 10 in our indoor pool at PDIC HQ. Then, open water dives would be conducted by different PDIC instructors in different areas to expose the student to different types of local and regional diving. We also try team teaching to reduce instructor dependency. No one is being forced to do push-ups, but students are expected to improve every skill by repetition. Doris Murphy, PDIC president, made us swim laps in snorkeling gear every class to strengthen our legs when wearing fins. Now, divers just have to do the 200 yard swim in a course once and use a split fin to compensate for a weak kick. Starting a class with a 200 - 500 snorkel then having the divers float their tanks on in the water and then ending the class with a 3 minute water tread in full gear and no air in the BCD isn't exactly ... :inquisition:



Your apology is accepted. In message boards, the intellectual sparring and Socratic debate without personal interaction, often is like a game of ping-pong played with logic rather than a ball. It often becomes a game. We try to best our opponents based upon facts presented and inventoried at the time. We also forget that we are sometimes playing against real people who have feelings and emotions rather than against the computer or just a myriad of profiles. Emotion also tends to make arguments heated at the time and people slam one another harder online than they would in person. Also, because tone of voice is lacking, sometimes the way we write carries unintended insult and one sentence can be taken different ways by different readers. You and I would probably have more in common in person than online. I spent some time living in Dade County in Coral Gables, hanging out with the guards from the Venetian Pool, training to work for Dade County as a lifeguard at the Tamiami pool, the atoll pool and Crandon Beach before taking a job that popped up in the Cayman Islands as a scuba instructor.
People who meet me think I'm from "The Valley" in California or some stoner surfer because of the accent of voice. They are shocked to find a brain behind it. I'm just passionate about diving and diver training. While it may seem like I'm Mike Nelson on the Net, in real-life I'd probably come off more like Keanu Reeves or the turtle from Finding Nemo asking, "Why did you lose your dive buddy?" rather than "Do you have your exit buddy?"



I am going to guess that Thal will say 2 - 2.5 miles.



I think that diving needs to be all-inclusive. I love love love the fact that we now have Dive Heart, the HSA, and the IAHD! I think everyone should be allowed to dive, but the training needs to reflect the level of competency expected from a certification. As I've said before, why do we ask handicapped divers to give us their best that they can to overcome their disabilities, but we ask less and less of the 100% able-bodied to earn their certs with each passing year?

It would be nice to pull out a C-card and get to do the dives you are trained to do. In lifeguarding, we hire 15 year-old to work professionally as rescuers and we trust them to prevent drownings and save lives with CPR, First Aid, AED and O2. These are kids! I always asked my young lifeguards how is it that they can come work on the beach with me and make me proud every day with their professionalism, but they get in trouble at home and school? Yet, in diving, a 41 year-old agency training director who is a cave, trimix, wreck penetration, and lifeguard instructor cannot rent a tank to go shore diving from a shop in Bermuda or is told to not penetrate a wreck in 115 feet of water in the St. Lawrence by the captain?

I think a cert level should exist for everyone who wants to dive, but each level needs to really mean something. That way, we can get the freedom from dive operators to get the adventure back. Divers with 30 C-cards might not get themselves hurt, but they should be stellar divers by that point and strong divers and swimmers.

Rescue, DM, instructor and tech levels should be taken VERY seriously - more seriously than they are today. It's not just the accidents that define diving. The near misses DAN never hears about change the sport. How many times does a dive boat operation need to rescue tech divers who can't swim back to the boat in current before they say, sorry no tech diving? Or, how many times do instructors get in trouble the same way and need a DM to swim them a lifeline? A few occurrences of this and when you pull out your instructor card to prove you can handle a night dive, the shop balks because they know instructors aren't much different in ability than any other diver they've had to pluck from the sea.



I attend RSTC meetings representing PDIC that have been set up by the industry for the sole purpose of preventing government regulation. PADI, SSI, SDI, IDEA, PDIC and the YMCA (now SEI and not currently attending) have been determining minimum training standards as a collective body for years. The little agencies usually push for higher standards at these meetings only to be defeated or surrender to the larger agencies. If you think things are bad now, they'd be far worse with government intervention.

I guarded on the South Beach Miami, Diana Beach, Fort Lauderdale Beach and North Shore in Hawaii (part time for I was in the military). I am an instructor for several agencies now even though I dont guard now. The training in Hawaii was the most in depth for we used jet skis and long boards for the rescues also. I would'nt say it was the toughest, but more knowledge based. Should I not be allowed to teach because I dont sit on the beach or pool side even though I had been invovled in lifeguarding since I was 16. BTW, I am 46 now. I have many of the guards that I train that can out run me in a timed run ( I run 10ks regularly and do sprint tri's) many can out swim me in a timed event (most of the guards I train are on the high school swim team). But they dont have the rescue skills yet.

Please dont get me wrong, I think more indepth training is a good thing, but I think it should come down to the indivisual diver. If I want to gain more knowledge, I'll do a AOW course. If I want to go deeper, I'll take a deep water certification class. These should be left to the person wanting the extra knowledge for thier type of diving being done. Not being mandated by the scuba police or some goverment agency. We have enough organizations and goverment in our lifes already. So what if I can out swim my scuba instructor on a surface swim or I can do a breath holding swim longer than he/her.

 

[Thalassamania]

... Please dont get me wrong, I think more indepth training is a good thing, but I think it should come down to the indivisual diver. If I want to gain more knowledge, I'll do a AOW course. If I want to go deeper, I'll take a deep water certification class. These should be left to the person wanting the extra knowledge for thier type of diving being done. Not being mandated by the scuba police or some goverment agency. We have enough organizations and goverment in our lifes already. So what if I can out swim my scuba instructor on a surface swim or I can do a breath holding swim longer than he/her.

There are many of us who do not see the things being discussed as extra, rather we see them as essential pieces of diver training that once were (and in many of our cases, still are) part of normal entry level diver training.