Diving Education Today

[Trace Malinowski]

Tough training didn't help me to be a better person. My papa and mama's teachings do that. If a person has to take a rigorous scuba course in order to be a good human being then that person really should look at that person's life and those who are around him or her.

I don't think you intentionally meant to devalue the difference my diving instructors made in my life, nor do I think you intentionally meant to devalue my life nor those who surround me.

 

[gcbryan]

This is not directed toward any one person and it's not meant to be disrespectful either but consider why some threads are in Whine and Cheese and why others aren't. I'm not sure what the distinction is. I generally take subjects that are important to me or are of interest to me to Whine and Cheese if it's just something that bothers me but isn't productive in the general forums.

How is this subject, which has been debated over and over and will never reach a conclusion, one which should not be in Whine and Cheese. Training is not going to change one way or the other regardless of how many posts are made on this subject in this forum

I really am interested in the logic of posting the same thing over and over as if posting the same thing a few more times might result in a different outcome. It's a discussion board and everyone has the right to discuss anything they want to but everyone has the right to continue to butt their head against a cement wall and most would chose not to.

Recreational divers are not going to be taking the same courses as commercial, military, or scientific divers for one thing. Another point to consider is that at a certain point experience outweighs education so if experienced divers are dying in great numbers (which they're not) then past education may not have much to do with it.

This is like discussing accident reports when someone died holding their breath. Then come the lectures with the justification that "if only one life is saved it will have been worth it". This is largely nonsense in my opinion. This is justification to lecture forever on any subject that one choses to lecture on.

Some degree of accidents is inevitable. We accept it in driving why don't we except it in diving?.

 

[Diver0001]

Right then... So....... just summarizing about 87 million posts about this same topic, the old timers seem to repeatedly return to these two points:

1) Watermanship "skills" have been reduced along with the barrier to entry in the sport and they feel this must make divers unsafe (despite what the statistics would appear to suggest)

2) Courses are too quick and/or too easy for their liking. Not "failing" a certain percentage of students (weeding out the weak) doesn't sit well with them.

That pretty much gets to the heart of it, right?

R..

 

[gcbryan]

My post was not that long so I don't think it really needs to be summarized.

I don't have a problem with your post however but I'm not just talking about the facts being disputed but I'm also curious concerning the utility of repeating something over and over. I believe Einstein's definition of insanity was something along those lines.

 

[dadediver]

You may want to read these about Sandy Hook's higher swim standard than USLA:

A post I made about swim standards discussing Sandy Hook ...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/4878356-post37.html

The National Park Service's info on pre-employment swim tests for Sandy Hook ...

Gateway National Recreation Area - Testing for National Park Service Lifeguard Jobs (U.S. National Park Service)

My source and more complete information on the science behind the Sandy Hook standard ...

Surf-Lifeguard Preemployment Test | World Conference on Drowning Prevention

I know that this is off topic, however a 600 yard swim vs the old 800 yard swim is kind of a weaker standard from the "old days". So the ULSA did lower thier standards.

 

[dadediver]

Long Rescue Story Defending My Actions

So, I'm somehow less of a lifeguard and diving professional because I made a rescue with no equipment?

First, I looked at the condition of the swimmer and was glad to see that he had the energy to be yelling for help. I knew that gave me time to look around for a piece of improvised floatation. The day before there had been a couple of buoys with a broken line in the proximity. A string of buoys had come undone due to weather. They weren't there. Someone probably cleaned them up.

A BCD is a good improvisation for a rescue tube. At least it keeps a piece of equipment that works as floatation between the victim and the rescuer. Too bad my wing was bolted to my double tanks by a steel backplate. The tanks were in my friend's SUV in the hotel parking lot.

I teach my students that they can construct a throw line quickly using a finger spool and a bottle of water, soda or sports drink. The victim was too far out to throw him a line. My spool was clipped into my X-shorts pocket which was also in the SUV. The water bottles were in the cooler in the SUV as well. There was nothing around even if he had been within range of a throw. My DSMB would have made a great improvised rescue tube, but guess where that was? Yeah, it was in the SUV.

There were no boats, no rafts, no surfboards or boogie boards, and no lifeguards on duty. Rowing out or taking anything that would be floatation or that might resemble a paddleboard wasn't an option.

Couldn't throw. Couldn't row.

That meant I had to go.

I didn't just run into the water like an unthinking, knuckle-dragging, macho elitist, glory hound, but thanks for the vote of confidence.

All I had was the board shorts that I was wearing, a wax comb in my right cargo pocket and a facemask. I wear contacts and I had the mask so I could go into the water before class and size up the conditions for class.

I knew that would help if the victim went under and it would also allow me to keep a better eye on him as waves broke in my face on the way out.

Once I realized I'd have to swim, and what tools I had, I took stock of my physical capabilities, sized up the situation, and decided to go. At the time, I was 40 years old, and while keeping in shape as best as I can, I'm not the same as in my 20's or early 30's. I took off hard on the run, but tried to conserve energy going over the sand.

When I hit the water, I found myself working harder than I wanted. It was a difficult swim in the chop and surge over shallow sections of reef. I could feel the lactic acid building up and even though I wanted to keep my eye on him, I decided that I'd risk losing sight of him, by putting my head in the water, but re-establish view every several strokes. This allowed me to rest a little while swimming hard and also helped me pick my way through a couple of shallow sections as it turned out. Once beyond that point, the rip helped push me out.

As I neared, I told him that I was there to help and that I wanted him to do me a favor and relax for me and let me establish contact. I stopped near him and went into the ready reverse and sculled close enough to make contact from behind under his left armpit and leveled him into the alternate cross-chest carry gripped with my right arm. This was old hat thanks to the training I had 20 years ago.

I knew that the swim in wouldn't be easy, but I was glad for the added buoyancy of salt water and the fact that the victim was positively buoyant as well. Working across the reef to get away from the outflow of water, I realized that I could get him to a buoy before we reached shore and I asked him if he would be okay if we could reach the buoys and hang on the line for a bit. That string of buoys encircled a coral head to keep snorkelers out and guide them on a tour of the reef. He was okay with that and was also able to help me kick. That helped a lot crossing the rips.

I thought of the buoy because in my first lifeguard test as a teen, my "victim" let go of the ring buoy I had thrown her. I did a stride entry from the pool and swam to the ring and passed it to her, keeping it between us as both a barrier to direct rescuer to victim contact and for floatation. The "victim" then climbed over the ring seized my wrist and I had to do a release hold on her, put her into a cross-chest carry and get her to side of the pool. Passing the ring to her rather than just doing a swimming rescue got me the only perfect score in that test for a college credit. I had a semester of tough training and an "A" in the class with a tough female instructor who sequestered all lifeguard candidates in a room and, quite fairly, took us one by one into the pool for the same test. The candidates never returned to the room so no one could help anyone prepare. I was the last to go. I was really nervous because the course had been tough and I couldn't imagine what the test would be like since class was grueling. Our "victim" was a big, tough, strong girl who fought hard. But, all the training made the test easy.

Anyway, the lesson learned from that first lifeguard test made me think that if I could improvise in the water and rest before the swim back, it would make it safer for both of us. I took the chance and released him to hold on to the top of the buoy, get high out of the water, and rest himself. I treaded next to him and prepared for the swim home if the buoy idea didn't work. He regained some of his composure and wanted to try to pull himself in by the line attaching the string would put us into shallow water just offshore. As he did, I switched to an assisting a tired swimmer tow. He was okay with the line on one side and me on the other. As we neared the beach, I asked if he wanted me to let go for the last few yards where he could stand figuring he would want a little dignity. He said, he'd be great with that.

He thanked me for helping him and I thanked him for his courage to recognize he needed help, and for making it possible to reduce some of the workload by cooperating.

Twenty-one years after the skills learned in ARC Advanced Lifesaving I found myself in a rescue situation that was exactly what they trained us to be able to do in the worst case scenario. I've demonstrated it and done it in all my Red Cross, YMCA, USLA, and dive rescue courses. But, unlike some of my students and other guards I trained with, it wasn't just one time in a lifeguard training class that it was demonstrated and performed. We swam lap after lap towing and fighting one another in those days when equipment was a secondary skill. Even if it helped just once in 21 years, it helped once. On that day, for both us, once was plenty.

By the way, in that instructor class, I challenged the instructor candidates to meet the same swim test standards and perform the basic watermanship skills as required by Sandy Hook, USCG rescue swimmers, UDT/BUD's, and others all the way down to the minimal standards required to be a scuba instructor. This included swim times, underwater breath hold swims, snorkel swims, etc. The best student was a woman who kept her minimum standards between a Sandy Hook lifeguard and a USCG rescue swimmer at age 38. All candidates did the class in double tanks. Hopefully I inspired them like my lifeguard and scuba instructors inspired me.

By the way, my toughest scuba instructor who made me swim laps and demanded quality when I was 13 and in my first scuba class was also a woman. Her husband and son had a gentler approach.

So much for "macho" and "sexist". I guess that just means anyone, male or female, who asks their students to work hard is elitist.

Short Post Food for Thought about Women Divers

I think the biggest injustice in the diving industry is that women are always put in a position of being the "victims" of "macho elitism" as a defense for lessened standards rather than being given credit for being the ones most willing to meet or exceed whatever standards are thrown at them.

Men must have thought of that one.

I apologize if I came off condesending. That wasnt my intentions, even though it came out that way after reading my post.

 

[dadediver]

I don't know about that, but back in the late '60s you needed to make a rather long swim (Manhattan Beach to Redondo Beach) staying in the surf break the entire way to qualify as an LA County Beach LifeGuard.
QUOTE]


What was the distance swam? It may had been a long swim to some and not much of a challange to others. Long distances is subjective. As you know, if you dont run a lot, a 5K may very well be a long run. If you run marathons, a 5K is pretty short.

 

[Slonda828]

This is not directed toward any one person and it's not meant to be disrespectful either but consider why some threads are in Whine and Cheese and why others aren't. I'm not sure what the distinction is. I generally take subjects that are important to me or are of interest to me to Whine and Cheese if it's just something that bothers me but isn't productive in the general forums.

How is this subject, which has been debated over and over and will never reach a conclusion, one which should not be in Whine and Cheese. Training is not going to change one way or the other regardless of how many posts are made on this subject in this forum

I really am interested in the logic of posting the same thing over and over as if posting the same thing a few more times might result in a different outcome. It's a discussion board and everyone has the right to discuss anything they want to but everyone has the right to continue to butt their head against a cement wall and most would chose not to.

Recreational divers are not going to be taking the same courses as commercial, military, or scientific divers for one thing. Another point to consider is that at a certain point experience outweighs education so if experienced divers are dying in great numbers (which they're not) then past education may not have much to do with it.

This is like discussing accident reports when someone died holding their breath. Then come the lectures with the justification that "if only one life is saved it will have been worth it". This is largely nonsense in my opinion. This is justification to lecture forever on any subject that one choses to lecture on.

Some degree of accidents is inevitable. We accept it in driving why don't we except it in diving?.

If people did not repeat themselves I bet there would be under half of the threads that are on this board right now. Think about how many times you have seen the same pedantic threads. "What regulator should I buy?" "Split fins or paddle fins?" "New diver, needs to learn how to weight myself because my instructor is lazy." Ponder that for a moment. At least in this thread people are passionately arguing their points instead of spewing forth questions that their instructor should have handled on day one of their training. Besides, it's like Howard Stern, if you do not like it then turn it off. There are some of us who believe in dive training though, and we are not simply going to give up because you disagree with us. Who do you think we are....France?

 

[openmindOW]

Recreational divers are not going to be taking the same courses as commercial, military, or scientific divers for one thing. Another point to consider is that at a certain point experience outweighs education so if experienced divers are dying in great numbers (which they're not) then past education may not have much to do with it.

Fair points. I've kept my mouth shut on this topic for the last few days.

The broad topic of "training quality" is too broad. Perhaps it makes sense to narrow it by dividing the broad topic into the following categories of training:
* Entry Level Recreational (single tank)
* Recreational Advanced (single tank)
* Scientific Entry Level
* Commercial
* Recreational Divemaster
* Recreational Instructor


Another interesting question is this: Should There Be a Recreational Certification At All? I think some posters here may question whether there should be, and that's fine. I'll respect that opinion, although I personally think there should recreational certifications.

IMHO, the important questions facing us are these:

1) Standards for Entry Level Recreational (IMHO too low with some agencies)

2) Standards for Recreational Professionals (IMHO way too low most agencies)

Just my opinion.

 

[theduckguru]

Folks,

If you believe the quality of scuba training is so low that action should be taken, quit wasting time on scuba board and write the various industry training organizations requesting improvements or contact your legislative representatives requesting government regulation.

Besides, I could use a job in the Dept of Scuba Safety.