Diving Education Today

[Kingpatzer]

That's not a statistic. It's the opinion of the people running the government in Quebec.

It's easily turned into a statistc though:

100% of all Quebecer governments regulate stuff!

 

[AndyNZ]

Ah, the good old days. I remember when I learnt to drive that the acceptable blood alcohol limit for drink driving was 160mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood.... can't believe that they've dropped it to 80mg now.

Oh, hang on... there was a whole bunch of statistics and facts relating to alcohol being a contributing factor in so many RTAs. In fact, I can't wait until the acceptable blood alcohol limit is 0mg.... all those old duffers who still drink and drive, because that's what they used to do back in the good old days. Let's take their licences away and lock 'em up for a few years.

Change happens, change can be good as well as bad. If anyone can actually show that changing diver education is a contributing factor to an increasing number of scuba incidents *AND* include the changing (statistical) population size to include that there are just more divers now then there were 40 years ago, then I'm all ears.

But no one can show that. If they could, they'd have sued a number of dive agencies to the for every penny they have. So all we have is a bunch of opinions which normally don't take into account that there must be at least ten if not a hundred times more divers today than there was back in the good old days when you knew everyone's name.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Boundaries between rec and tec is easy to define - overhead environment. Sports diving covers both, with tec then going further than sports diving can. Sometimes sports divers tend to be less amenable to the more regimented technical diving, and tech divers who came from the recreational side don't appreciate how much value experience can be.

So you seem to be saying Germany has defined divers as recreational, sport and technical divers; would an obese person be able to qualify for the sport diver qualification?

 

[DCBC]

I don't anyone is disputing that claim. Rather, I think the response is "So?"

Yes, this seems to be the attitude.

You want to see the level of training go up, but why? Because that is where you feel it should be based on how you have been introduced to diving and spent your diving career.

Yes. Our opinions are mitigated from our experiences.

Even if we raise it back up to the 50 or so hours you suggest, or take it to 100 hours, the reality of the recreational diver is that they don't make that many dives a year. So in 2 or 3 years of making their 5 warm water dives each year, those students will have regressed in their skills significantly. I'd be more than willing to wager that your average student making so few dives a year would be indistinguishable from a conscientious PADI instructor's student coming from a 4 dive 20-whatever hour program.

I think that how well someone learns something reflects upon their rate of retention. Of course application of the knowledge gained is important for it to be retained.

It's also worth noting that a better trained diver is a safer diver. Do you dispute this?

You and I both know that legislative governments will jump on any sensationalized news story and turn it into some sort of national emergency if it will give someone a sound-bite come election time.

It takes more than a sensationalized news story to get the Canadian politicians off their a*s. From what I gather from what you are saying, that it's different in the U.S.

I don't think you're going to see it not be the case in the near future unless there is government action.

It's difficult to slow down the money machine.

...with the exception of buoyancy control -- that is the one skill that I do feel is essential and not adequately taught by the typical scuba short course.

Then you are agreeing that the level of diver education needs to be improved. I feel this way as well.

 

[DCBC]

Hey DCBC,

I got your point. I am a relatively new diver (137 dives) and I have been disappointed with the degree of instruction I have had access to. I have chosen to read everything I can get my hands on and implement my own training to try and follow the path you described way back at the beginning of this thread. In fact, thats part of why I like diving is because there is so much to learn and so many challenges to look forward to. Thanks for your thread.

PD

Thank you. Your attitude is right-on. Enjoy the journey.

 

[DCBC]

The point was missed when in the very first post you attempted to compare civilian recreational dive training to military and commercial dive trainings.

I'm just trying to show you how ludicrous it is to even attempt to make such comparisons.

Part of military heightened diving standards is the task load that a military diver has to perform nowadays in war time. That's why military divers, Navy SEALs, Special Forces combat swimmers have to do 10-miles non-finned swims and 30-miles road marches with 100-lbs rucksack.

Tell me where in the civilian recreational dive world where I would have to do anything evenly remotely related to that?

So, yes, military diving standards are different AND more rigorous AND need to be improved with the time because the missions become more dangerous and hazardous. The enemies are wiser about SEALs'/Combat Swimmers' modus operandi, therefore these people have to devise different ways to get to the objectives and execute their missions.

Again you miss the point. I am not comparing the operational role of military or commercial divers to that of recreational divers.

 

[DCBC]

He said that military and commercial diving training had increased in standards while recreational training had decreased in standards and cited that the rec divers should emulate the military and commercial divers.

I just wanted to show the folly of that line of logic.

I appreciate your comments and opinion.

 

[DCBC]

You seem to be promoting governmental intervention.

No Richard, that's the last thing that I want. I'd much prefer the diving industry to accept responsibility, so that Government never feels it has to become involved.

 

[DCBC]

So there is training out there that just doesnt pass people for the money. Again, maybe I had just been lucky with seeking instructors out.

Yes, I donate my time to teaching. There are many Clubs that are excellent sources for excellent and inexpensive instruction.

Even if you have a 50 hour mininum required course for basic OW, there will still be mishaps, accidents and deaths. And one could argue that the quality of the training is lacking. One could say physical fitness is the cause so anyone with a BMI of 26 or more isnt allowed to scuba or a bi-annaul PT test is needed or anyone over 40 years of age or a blood pressure of 140/90 or higher cant dive. The list can go on and on. The bottom line is we have to take ownership for ourselfs. If you buy a gun, get the proper training. If you skydive, get the proper and documented training. Same goes for about most of the high risk sports out there

I totally agree. Better training equals better preparation, better preparation equals enhanced safety.

So I got trained in Fort Lauderdale Fla in 1979. I now dive from Oct to April in Ohio/Michigan and dive ICE. Are you proposing that I be regulated on me not diving up north since I was certified in warm salt water or for me to retake a OW class up north?

No. What what I will say is a warm-water diver should be aware not to attempt to dive in the North Atlantic without first preparing himself to do so safely. The same is true for a cold-water diver going to some locations in the south. If the location is different than those you have been trained in, a prudent diver will properly prepare themselves.

You sound like a really caring and giving instructor. However, my four sons and wife dives also. Each having a different instructor (we move around alot). Each of my kids and wife instructors (five different instructors) was ready to stay over after hours to work with them on thier tables, mask retreivals and any where else they were lacking in thier skills. Perhaps we are just plain lucky, but we had some great, caring instructors. I would venture to say that most of the instructors are this way. Perhaps I am wrong.

No I don't think you're wrong. Many instructors want the best for their students. However some Instructors are employed at dive stores that run cookie cutter programs. Time is limited. Some Instructors are experienced enough to do a reasonably good job with the time they have, while others try their best but fall short. SCUBA Instructors are just like everyone else and have a range of strengths and weaknesses. It sounds that you have been fortunate.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I think that how well someone learns something reflects upon their rate of retention. Of course application of the knowledge gained is important for it to be retained.

There have been numerous studies taking very gifted students and giving them tests on subject matter months and years after they learned it and comparing the results between those who have done nothing with the material and those who have had to apply it.

Students who got C's in a class, using the knowledge regularly, will move up to B's and A's on follow up exams after having had to use the knowledge regularly. A students will progress to lower and lower grades as information falls into disuse.

For warm water recreational divers who are doing a few dives on their annual vacations, there is no reason to suspect that their skills and knowledge would be retained better based on how well they are instructed.

Now, if you take two otherwise equal divers who are going to be using their knowledge frequently, then the quality of the instructor matters a great deal. But that doesn't apply to the average diver.

It's also worth noting that a better trained diver is a safer diver. Do you dispute this?

To the extent that their knowledge and skills are retained, yes. But when Joe Vacation-Diver shows up to dive in Cozumel after not having dove for the last 5 years, and having only made 15 dives in his life before that, the quality of instruction won't matter much.

Then you are agreeing that the level of diver education needs to be improved. I feel this way as well.

For buoyancy control, it's an area where I think the standards are weak. But I don't think the standards _need_ to be improved. I'd like to see them improved because I subjectively believe the new diver would more enjoy the sport and it would be better for the environment if control was improved. But I don't see it as an issue of necessity with regards to safety; nor do I have anything beyond anecdotes to use as data points to indicate that I'm right about my assumptions.