Diving Education Today

[DCBC]

However, military, commercial diving IS different than that of a rec diver. Programs may seem the same, but are they? Its a subjective.

If a civilian diving instructor has been a military diver. He knows that your son meets the standards of a civilian card (even if he didn't have a YMCA card). If they don't know about the specifics of his training, they may have an opinion, but it would be an uninformed one. Perhaps this is one of the problems I'm experiencing on this thread.

What would be your idea of what the OW course training should be? I ask this, for I do vaule your input and training.

Without getting too specific, my entry SCUBA programs are around 50 hours of training; although there is no maximum time limit to complete the course. If someone needs more time to work on their swimming or other in-water skills they have it.

The course is designed for a person to learn to dive by being a contributing member of a buddy pair. Upon completion they are qualified to dive in conditions similar or better than those they have been trained in without the need of a Divemaster or Instructor. Open-water training is completed in the North Atlantic.

I might add that I currently teach at a Dive Club without payment. When I ran Rec courses through my Dive Shop, my courses were around 45 hours. At this time PADI minimum training times were 27 hours and NAUI had a 34 hour minimum course time.

Regardless of the Instructor, what agency they are affiliated with and how they choose to run their program, most would agree that if their course was longer they could prepare the diver better. If they couldn't, they wouldn't be much of an Instructor.

The business of diving instruction however is not about what's ideal. Many people want is quick and easy and there's money to be made. A dive store finds it difficult to be competitive by running longer programs and charging more money to do so. Thus the current situation of recreational diving today.

 

[SolarStorm]

Perhaps one of the reasons many people feel the training is not only adequate but good is that they have never had an emergency that they could not handle.

The real reason we shoul take training is to be prepared in an emergency. My first dives in 1978(ish) involved going to hanama bay (sp?) and the DM saying put your face in the water, "Can you breath? Are you ready to go? OK, then follow me" And everyone in the group survived.

Diving is not difficult, but can be dangerous when the limits of the human body are ignored. Remember our dive tables are nothing more than "trial and error" backup up with good scientific guesses.

Training is preparing for emergency to avoid panic so that we dont push our bodies outside of its limits. People are less likely to panic if they have been exposed to a situation. I have no idea, but if I was desinging the courses, I would run statistics on diving accidents and plan my training on an 80% rule. Teach for 80% of the accidents in the students targetted environment. Point out where information is on the remaing 20%.

I would hazard that the majority of new divers are headed somewhere tropical and will complete maybe 10 dives in their lifetime, just like there are many skydivers that have done it once. We still need to get these people in the water, because the sport will benefit from the numbers plus some of those people will decide "Hey, this is pretty cool" and become Scuba Board adicts.

I sincerly doubt that many of us will change the PADI standards, but what we can do is make each and every dive we do:

1. Safe. I have no problem saying I wont dive with you (There are pilots I have told this to)
2. FUN! I do this for fun. Safe but boring will not find me on the boat. Find out what the group is doing and make sure it meets your goals. I am surprised how few people actually do this and are willing to blindly follow and then state "Well that was boring".

But if memory serves, these two items were covered in my OWD course with the statement "Plan the dive, dive the plan". They could maybe do a little better job of explaining HOW to plan the dive. And I dont mean just bottom time.

 

[rstofer]

The military and the commercial have only increased their training standards (not lowering them). Do the military and commercial diving industries know something that sport diving has put aside; or is it that there's enough money to be made that the death and injury rate is deemed to be acceptable?

Who says that training (or lack thereof) is in any way responsible for the death rate among recreational divers? You sure won't get that proof from the DAN statistics.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with diving warm water a couple of weeks a year and it doesn't take a former SEAL to do it. Just jump in, swim down, swim around and swim up. No big deal. Rinse and repeat.

The only possible conclusion you can draw from DAN statistics is that divers over 40 should be banished. That single change would prevent 90% of the fatalities.

Well, guess what? I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of Navy divers are below 40 too. No wonder they have such a good safety record. It has nothing to do with training, it has to do with age!

I have no idea about the ages of commercial divers but I'll bet the average age is still below 40. Sure, there may be some outliers but I would certainly like to see the statistics. Fatalities vs age...

If we were to regress to training ala the '50s, the worldwide demand for regulators would drop to maybe 100/year. Nobody wants their recreation to be an endurance contest. The 'industry' would be no larger than it was, way back when. One or two companies and that's it.

For the industry, raising the standards would reduce the market. Ain't going to happen! And it won't reduce fatalities. Or. at least you can't prove it from the DAN statistics.

Richard

 

[DCBC]

Who says that training (or lack thereof) is in any way responsible for the death rate among recreational divers? You sure won't get that proof from the DAN statistics.

I haven't suggested that the proof comes from DAN statistics. If you have been diving long enough you know what I'm talking about. The level of diver training has gone down. I posed a question in an SB Survey "Are you satisfied with today's level of diving education?" The majority of the respondents said no. So throw me a bone here.

In Quebec the government now regulates diving. The reason cited? Too many diver deaths resulting from inadequate basic training. How's that for a statistic?

For the industry, raising the standards would reduce the market. Ain't going to happen!

That would be a shame for those making money out of having lower standards wouldn't it? I do agree that it won't happen as long as diving certification standards are controlled by industry. perhaps this will not always be the case. Just say'in...

 

[Kingpatzer]

I haven't suggested that the proof comes from DAN statistics. If you have been diving long enough you know what I'm talking about. The level of diver training has gone down.

I don't anyone is disputing that claim. Rather, I think the response is "So?"

You want to see the level of training go up, but why? Because that is where you feel it should be based on how you have been introduced to diving and spent your diving career.

You seem to believe that the low number of actual incidents year after year is some sort of magical dumb luck. Most people would look at what's going on in terms of injury statistics and take a different view: training is basically sufficient.

Even if we raise it back up to the 50 or so hours you suggest, or take it to 100 hours, the reality of the recreational diver is that they don't make that many dives a year. So in 2 or 3 years of making their 5 warm water dives each year, those students will have regressed in their skills significantly. I'd be more than willing to wager that your average student making so few dives a year would be indistinguishable from a conscientious PADI instructor's student coming from a 4 dive 20-whatever hour program.

That's just a matter of how human psychology and task retention works.

I posed a question in an SB Survey "Are you satisfied with today's level of diving education?" The majority of the respondents said no. So throw me a bone here.

Self-selecting survey respondents does not a viable study make.

In Quebec the government now regulates diving. The reason cited? Too many diver deaths resulting from inadequate basic training. How's that for a statistic?

You and I both know that legislative governments will jump on any sensationalized news story and turn it into some sort of national emergency if it will give someone a sound-bite come election time.

What I do know is that PADI still teaches in Canada, and I don't think they run a different curriculum there (though I'm willing to be corrected on that)

I do agree that it won't happen as long as diving certification standards are controlled by industry. perhaps this will not always be the case. Just say'in...

I agree with you that it won't happen.
I don't think you're going to see it not be the case in the near future unless there is government action.
I'm not sure that it presents any problem to the dive industry in general that the standards are what they are. I'm just not convinced of that point.*

* with the exception of buoyancy control -- that is the one skill that I do feel is essential and not adequately taught by the typical scuba short course.

 

[Teamcasa]

...Elitism...
.... it just seems to me that the high risk sports always attracts the elitist who feels that there are too many ...

This is true. 35 years ago, I was trained by a skilled diving professional who made sure all of his students were instilled with a touch of elitism. He would say things like, "Only 20% of my students pass this class.".

We did feel pretty full of ourselves after graduation and when easier courses came along, we boo hoo'd them as dangerous and irresponsible. But, somehow they survived and many became very good divers.

Today, most divers are trained pretty well to be a recreational diver. They are encouraged to get additional training and for those who really want to join the ranks of the elite, there are addition courses open to them.

The problem arises when one attempts a dangerous activity without the proper training. Sadly, that attitude is not limited to scuba diving.

Well, guess what? I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of Navy divers are below 40 too. No wonder they have such a good safety record. It has nothing to do with training, it has to do with age!

True enough.

 

[fnfalman]

I'm not trying to jump to DCBC's defense (he is more than capable himself) but he is not comparing regular diving to being in the military. He is merely stating that more training makes safer divers based upon his diving experience (which is longer than I have been alive). The real point of debate is how much training is adequate.

He said that military and commercial diving training had increased in standards while recreational training had decreased in standards and cited that the rec divers should emulate the military and commercial divers.

I just wanted to show the folly of that line of logic. Military divers and commercial divers fall under different legal obligations and regulations. Rec divers don't fall under any regulation or legal obligation at all.

The training should reflect the end product. Recreational diving isn't all that "badass" and "hardcore" and "extreme". Technical diving can be all that "badass", "hardcore" and "extreme", ergo technical diving is a lot more involved and rigorous.

OW training, regardless of whichever agency's program, had plenty of coverage for dealing with the typical emergencies that an average rec diver is expected to encounter. As far as fine tuning skills of establishing buoyancy and weighting, etc. Those techniques can be learned via diving with experienced divers who act as mentors. You don't need to have an instructor to conduct a class on how to do proper weighting, or proper fin kicks, etc.

 

[rstofer]

In Quebec the government now regulates diving. The reason cited? Too many diver deaths resulting from inadequate basic training. How's that for a statistic?



That would be a shame for those making money out of having lower standards wouldn't it? I do agree that it won't happen as long as diving certification standards are controlled by industry. perhaps this will not always be the case. Just say'in...

The absolute last thing the industry needs is government involvement. It doesn't surprise me that Quebec did what they did; it is Quebec, after all.

Kind of like the Berkeley of Canada...

You seem to be promoting governmental intervention. That will absolutely kill the sport. We already have too much government.

The good news: we don't even have boater licenses (at least in Calif) and that hobby kills many times more people than diving. The even better news: we probably never will have boater licenses.

Richard

 

[dadediver]

If a civilian diving instructor has been a military diver. He knows that your son meets the standards of a civilian card (even if he didn't have a YMCA card). If they don't know about the specifics of his training, they may have an opinion, but it would be an uninformed one. Perhaps this is one of the problems I'm experiencing on this thread.

My sons YMCA instructor is a former Navy diver and I think this is what inspired him, even though we talked him out of the Navy option.

However, how would a civilian business (local quarries) know what a military diving program is about and what "proof" is thier that he completed it. Hence a C card. Even if you have a 50 hour mininum required course for basic OW, there will still be mishaps, accidents and deaths. And one could argue that the quality of the training is lacking. One could say physical fitness is the cause so anyone with a BMI of 26 or more isnt allowed to scuba or a bi-annaul PT test is needed or anyone over 40 years of age or a blood pressure of 140/90 or higher cant dive. The list can go on and on. The bottom line is we have to take ownership for ourselfs. If you buy a gun, get the proper training. If you skydive, get the proper and documented training. Same goes for about most of the high risk sports out there



Without getting too specific, my entry SCUBA programs are around 50 hours of training; although there is no maximum time limit to complete the course. If someone needs more time to work on their swimming or other in-water skills they have it.

The course is designed for a person to learn to dive by being a contributing member of a buddy pair. Upon completion they are qualified to dive in conditions similar or better than those they have been trained in without the need of a Divemaster or Instructor. Open-water training is completed in the North Atlantic.

So I got trained in Fort Lauderdale Fla in 1979. I now dive from Oct to April in Ohio/Michigan and dive ICE. Are you proposing that I be regulated on me not diving up north since I was certified in warm salt water or for me to retake a OW class up north?

I might add that I currently teach at a Dive Club without payment. When I ran Rec courses through my Dive Shop, my courses were around 45 hours. At this time PADI minimum training times were 27 hours and NAUI had a 34 hour minimum course time.

You sound like a really caring and giving instructor. However, my four sons and wife dives also. Each having a different instructor (we move around alot). Each of my kids and wife instructors (five different instructors) was ready to stay over after hours to work with them on thier tables, mask retreivals and any where else they were lacking in thier skills. Perhaps we are just plain lucky, but we had some great, caring instructors. I would venture to say that most of the instructors are this way. Perhaps I am wrong.

Regardless of the Instructor, what agency they are affiliated with and how they choose to run their program, most would agree that if their course was longer they could prepare the diver better. If they couldn't, they wouldn't be much of an Instructor.

This can be said with just about any type of training. How much is too much or too little is subjective based off experiances. I nor any of my family members or friends that I dive with had EVER had a OOA at any depth or any serious equipment failure. I have seen myself and son get cold diving for we dove in the winter months wet for many years, but we called the dives when we knew we were getting cold. This is our worst "oh sh** "experiances that we ever faced.

The business of diving instruction however is not about what's ideal. Many people want is quick and easy and there's money to be made. A dive store finds it difficult to be competitive by running longer programs and charging more money to do so. Thus the current situation of recreational diving today.

Welcome to the world. With dad and mom working,the kids school,after school activities, taking care of the house chores, I want it quick and easy too. If I dont meet the standards in the 32 hours, recycle me for remedial training until I get it. Again, I seen four instructors that did this several times and on my ICE class, I seen three divers quit due to the stress. I had seen two of my buddies not pass thier solo class on the first time. So there is training out there that just doesnt pass people for the money. Again, maybe I had just been lucky with seeking instructors out.

 

[Teamcasa]

...
In Quebec the government now regulates diving. The reason cited? Too many diver deaths resulting from inadequate basic training. How's that for a statistic?

That's not a statistic. It's the opinion of the people running the government in Quebec.