Nitrox and other academic lessons online

[boulderjohn]

When I see new divers that put the tank on backwards, drive the yoke screw through the tank valve o-ring, dive with so much fog their mask looks like it's frosted, while walking across the bottom, don't understand how they "ran out of air" and generally completely miss basic concepts of SCUBA, I think it's time to stop doing whatever we're doing and move back to training methods that produced divers that don't do these things.

So the occasional vacation diver did not forget instruction over time and make those mistakes in those days?

When were those good old days exactly?

It certainly would not be the last decade that DAN has fatality statistics for (1995-2005), because that would be too recent.

Would it be the first decade that DAN has statistics for (1970-1980)? Would those be the good old days?

BTW, in 1970-1980, the average number of diver deaths per year was almost 50% higher than in 1995-2005.

That's pure numbers of deaths. Since we don't have figures on the total number of divers (which would certainly be much, much higher now), we can't judge the change in percentages.

 

[redacted]

When I see new divers that put the tank on backwards, drive the yoke screw through the tank valve o-ring, dive with so much fog their mask looks like it's frosted, while walking across the bottom, don't understand how they "ran out of air" and generally completely miss basic concepts of SCUBA, I think it's time to stop doing whatever we're doing and move back to training methods that produced divers that don't do these things.

Terry

Perhaps they were a little slow and their instructor had to spend more time (even during pool time) teaching academics and therefore eating into the time that should have been dedicated to demonstrating, practicing, and accessing such skills. Rather than go back to old ways and have the entire class sit there while a few students are trying to master academics, how about a new system that tailors the academics to each students needs without effecting the academic education of the others.

 

[Web Monkey]

So the occasional vacation diver did not forget instruction over time and make those mistakes in those days?

I think you don't get out on Caribbean "cattle boats" often enough. This isn't an occasional mistake from someone who hasn't been in the water in years, this is a whole boat full of people certified yesterday that can't even assemble their equipment and need a DM in order to stand a chance of returning to the boat.

When were those good old days exactly?

Depends on the shop/school. For some, the "good old days" are still here.

Would it be the first decade that DAN has statistics for (1970-1980)? Would those be the good old days?

This is a really tired argument. There are no valid statistics, there never will be and you know it as well as I do. DAN has numbers that are pretty much meaningless without knowing how many people are certified, how many are diving and how many dives they do.


Terry

 

[boulderjohn]

I think you don't get out on Caribbean "cattle boats" often enough. This isn't an occasional mistake from someone who hasn't been in the water in years, this is a whole boat full of people certified yesterday that can't even assemble their equipment and need a DM in order to stand a chance of returning to the boat.

I try to avoid cattle boats, but I do have a pretty fair experience with boats with beginning divers. I guess you might want to be more complete in your profile. A comparison of yours with mine suggests that I have more experience there than you.

Depends on the shop/school. For some, the "good old days" are still here.

And for some bad practices were around decades ago. I have never seen anyone anywhere cut corners more than the shop that trained me back in the "good old days."

This is a really tired argument. There are no valid statistics, there never will be and you know it as well as I do. DAN has numbers that are pretty much meaningless without knowing how many people are certified, how many are diving and how many dives they do.

Is it your assumption that there are fewer divers now than then? Would you say the statistics were meaningless if they supported your position instead of contradicting them?

But back on point: what has any of this got to do with online academics? If you have evidence that online delivery of academic materials harms student learning, let's have it.

 

[Web Monkey]

I try to avoid cattle boats, but I do have a pretty fair experience with boats with beginning divers. I guess you might want to be more complete in your profile. A comparison of yours with mine suggests that I have more experience there than you.

I spend a couple of weeks each winter diving with brand new 2-day OW divers on a cruise ship. Do I win?

Is it your assumption that there are fewer divers now than then? Would you say the statistics were meaningless if they supported your position instead of contradicting them?

The statistics are meaningless because sufficient data is not available to reach any conclusions. If you don't know how many people are certified each year or dive or how many dives they do, you can't tell what the dropout or injury rate is.

But back on point: what has any of this got to do with online academics? If you have evidence that online delivery of academic materials harms student learning, let's have it.

OK. Computers can't see the students, understand and answer natural-language questions, approach a concept from a different direction or multiple directions when necessary or any of the other things that humans can do when interacting with each other. I like computers. As a software engineer, I understand exactly what the current state of Human Computer Interaction is, and it's nowhere near what it needs to be in order to replace humans as teachers for other humans.

Terry

 

[Steve50]

Perhaps a human could offer a class addressing the difference between opinion and evidence..

 

[Teamcasa]

Perhaps a human could offer a class addressing the difference between opinion and evidence..

That's a great line and I plan to use it myself!

 

[D_B]

Um ... PADI does not train divers, nor does it pass you ... your instructor does, he is the one who signs off on your card IF he thinks you will be a safe diver, and if can he not tell if you will be, or he does not know how to train you to be one, then you need another instructor, no matter who's agency he's teaching for

 

[boulderjohn]

OK. Computers can't see the students, understand and answer natural-language questions, approach a concept from a different direction or multiple directions when necessary or any of the other things that humans can do when interacting with each other. I like computers. As a software engineer, I understand exactly what the current state of Human Computer Interaction is, and it's nowhere near what it needs to be in order to replace humans as teachers for other humans.

May I suggest that before you go on with this much further, you take a little bit of time to learn how online education works? Your posts indicate that you are guessing, and you are guessing incorrectly.

All over the nation thousands and thousands of students are receiving part or all of their education online. Thousands of people earn diplomas and degrees every year in fully online programs. Michigan law now requires high school students to take at least one online class before they graduate. The acclaimed International Baccalaureate programme has started an online version. People succeed with outstanding scores on AP exams after learning online.

As for the PADI OW class, I myself have not dealt directly with it at this time, but I know many instructors who have. We in fact had a discussion about this in our shop recently, with those who have had students who went through it reporting that every one, without exception, has come to the them fully and completely prepared academically.

You seem to be saying that it is not possible because you are a software engineer and know it can't happen.

I am not clear on your point. Are you saying these things are not really happening?

 

[Web Monkey]

May I suggest that before you go on with this much further, you take a little bit of time to learn how online education works? Your posts indicate that you are guessing, and you are guessing incorrectly.

I'm unwilling to give PADI money to take a look, however if someone is willing to give me a free pass to the PADI online OW class, I'd love to, and in fact, would happily admit I'm wrong if I am.

You seem to be saying that it is not possible because you are a software engineer and know it can't happen.

Yes.

Conversational Synthetic Intelligence (which is what is required in order to replace a human teacher) does not currently exist. Until it does, online learning will not be a suitable replacement for human teachers.

I'm certain that it will happen, but I'm also certain that it has not happened yet. I know this because there are substantial prizes available for doing this and they have not yet been claimed.

Terry