Nitrox and other academic lessons online

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You will have to explain why it is logical. That logic escapes me.

PADI sells C-Cards and access to learning materials.

  • A few students, long classes and pool time is expensive and makes a little money.
  • Some students, medium length classes and less pool time makes more money
  • A lot of students, weekend classes and a little pool time makes even more money
  • A ton of students, no classes and no pool time makes a ton of money.
It shows up better on a graph, but I don't feel like spending time making one.

Really? I guess I missed those discussions, and the OW class has been around for at least that long. I was wondering why it had happened sooner. I guess the reason is that I have been involved with online education since 1995, and I always saw its potential to deliver academic content in a way that is equal to or superior to what happens in the classroom.
I find it a lot easier to spot someone thinking "huh???" in person. It's extremely difficult to do online, and there's really no incentive anyway. All PADI cares about is the right answer on the test and a signature on the forms.

Why is online education for academics a race to the bottom? Major universities like Stanford have been offering online classes for more than a decade.
Because if you don't "get" a concept in your stats class, nobody dies.

Once again you are projecting a situation that has not even been hinted at. Pool time is still a requirement.
I wouldn't call anything you can do in a weekend much of a "requirement", and seeing how both class and pool time have been reduced over the years, the logical partner to "no class time" is "no pool time".

How do you know their perspective? Why would this be a benefit to them?
They're a business. Their goal is to make money, not train competent divers. If a diver turns out OK, that's just fine, but the part they really care about is collecting the money and not losing lawsuits. In fact, from a liability perspective, their dream customer would be someone who pays for the class and never dives again.

I get this from seeing their classes change over time. It's not difficult to predict.

Terry
 
That's exactly my point. I don't see any reason that they would stop the process of issuing ever faster certs with less or no class/pool time. It's a huge money making machine and a very clean business.

Terry

Liability and public feedback. If ABC scuba agency were to certify a diver today with no pool or OW dives and the diver were to die next week in a scuba accident, they would probably find their training program under serious legal attack. They would probably be toast. So any further decrease in training standard will probably have to be a slow, baby-step process with none of the agencies getting much out of step.

And public feedback is readily available on this and other boards. In this particular case, online nitrox training seems to be getting strong public support. Not to many nay-sayers and even less nay rational beyond the idea that lipstick will lead to pregnancy.
 
PADI sells C-Cards and access to learning materials.

  • A few students, long classes and pool time is expensive and makes a little money.
  • Some students, medium length classes and less pool time makes more money
  • A lot of students, weekend classes and a little pool time makes even more money
  • A ton of students, no classes and no pool time makes a ton of money.
It shows up better on a graph, but I don't feel like spending time making one.

This is not a connective logical step in the process. It is a completely different situation and assumes a fact not in evidence, as I will explain later.

I find it a lot easier to spot someone thinking "huh???" in person. It's extremely difficult to do online...

Thank you for explaining the basics of online education. I have been involved with online eduation at some level since 1995. I founded and administered a fully online school within a public school district in 2001. I co-founded Colorado Online Learning, the state's official online high school program. I served as the Director of Curriculum and Instruction for one of the nation's biggest online education providers, and when that merged with an even larger one, I served as the Executive Manager of Curriculum. I co-authored a treatise on online science instruction for the North American Council for Online Learning. I know something about the challenges of online education, and I know how they are overcome.

...and there's really no incentive anyway.

There is enormous incentive. When I was with the online education company before my retirement, the presssure on us to have a high quality product with high quality results was intense. If a class was not working as it should, we had to do everything we could to figure out why and make it work. If we did not perform at a high level, we would be out of business.

All PADI cares about is the right answer on the test and a signature on the forms.

More facts not in evidence. See below.

Because if you don't "get" a concept in your stats class, nobody dies.

OK, I totally miss the connection here. You said (implied, actually) that online education lowered the quality of education. I asked why that is true, and I pointed out tht major universities like Stanford have been providing classes online for many years, and asked you why you thought that the education was inferior. Your reply has no connection whatsoever to what I said.

Implicit in everything you write is a belief that it is not possible to deliver the academics of a class like this online effectively. You have given no evidence of this, and there is a world of evidence to the contrary. For example, the passing rates on the AP exams, according to official College Board statistics, are higher for the major online programs than they are for traditional face to face clases. Dr. Clayton Christensen of the Harvard Business School recently published a highly accalimed work (Disrupting Class: How Disruptive Innocation Will Change the Way the World Learns) that predicts that within a few years, online education will learn how to fully utilize its technical advantages andl totally upend the educational process, bringing startling improvements in student learning. He points out that it is already providing a product comparable to the regular classroom; he thinks it will soon blow the regular classroom away.

I wouldn't call anything you can do in a weekend much of a "requirement", and seeing how both class and pool time have been reduced over the years, the logical partner to "no class time" is "no pool time".

Once again, there is no logical connection. First of all, as I said earlier, the class and pool time requirements have not changed. It is true that some individual instructors or shops have short changed things, but that is mostly done through standards violations, not through policy. Additionally, that level of shortchanging has been going on for many years, so there is no trend. Finally, your conclusion is similar to saying, "I see that Sally has decided to go on a diet. The next logical step is that she will intentionally starve herself to death."

They're a business. Their goal is to make money, not train competent divers. If a diver turns out OK, that's just fine, but the part they really care about is collecting the money and not losing lawsuits. In fact, from a liability perspective, their dream customer would be someone who pays for the class and never dives again.

This is simply not true. In fact, it is just the opposite. If PADI's goal were to have people learn to dive and never dive again, and if it acheived that goal, it would go out of business in no time. PADI as a whole includes dive resorts all over the world, resorts whose entire continued existence depends upon keeping people diving. PADI literature focuses over and over again on what professionals can do to keep divers diving. This is the primary assumed fact not in evidence mentioned earlier. You are assuming that PADI wants the diver to pay up and leave, which is the opposite of reality.

I get this from seeing their classes change over time. It's not difficult to predict.

Please identify those changes. The only one you have mentioned so far is the trend to online education, which you think (without providing any evidence) is somehow a drop in standards.
 
Thank you for explaining the basics of online education. I have been involved with online eduation at some level since 1995. I founded and administered a fully online school within a public school district in 2001. I co-founded Colorado Online Learning, the state's official online high school program. I served as the Director of Curriculum and Instruction for one of the nation's biggest online education providers,

When you have a hammer, a lot of problems look like nails.

Terry
 
It's a huge money making machine and a very clean business.
So what? Making money is what every business tries to do.

Their goal is to make money, not train competent divers.

What facts do you have to support the above statment? Have you seen the online course? As long as the final decision to issue a certification is still done by a competent instructor, who cares how they learned the information?

I have been taking online courses (automotive technical) and have consulted on the creation of others for a long time. The majority of students love the ability to study at their own pace and do off-line study in order to better understand the content.
 
What facts do you have to support the above statment? Have you seen the online course? As long as the final decision to issue a certification is still done by a competent instructor

Given what's been showing up in A&I, "competent instructor" isn't a given, and the entire training and certification process looks like it could use a huge shove in the other direction, including instructor certification.

Oddly enough, I don't have any problem with online Nitrox. I do have a problem with online "OW".

Terry
 
Given what's been showing up in A&I, "competent instructor" isn't a given, and the entire training and certification process looks like it could use a huge shove in the other direction, including instructor certification.

That's a whole other topic.

Oddly enough, I don't have any problem with online Nitrox. I do have a problem with online "OW".

Terry
What's the difference as long as they learn the academics and are tested by a competent instructor?
 
When you have a hammer, a lot of problems look like nails.

Terry

I'm sorry, but you misquoted that. In 1962, Abraham Maslow said,

When the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.

(emphasis added)

Maslow meant that people who have a limited range of options tend to see those options as the solution for everything. The quote would apply to me if the only thing I knew about were online education.

I was in the regular classroom for many years as well. I was appointed by the Colorado Governor to the Education Goals Task Force, where I was on the team that oversaw the creation of Colorado's state content standards. I served for a number of year as a staff developer, where my job was to teach regular classroom teachers the most effective methods of reaching students. I was a key participant in designing the teacher evaluation system now in use in one of the largest school districts in the nation. I am currently an editor and staff writer for a web site dedicated to innovative instruction in all phases of education.

I am very well acquainted with the theory and practice of the regular classroom. I have the capacity to compare the quality of regular classroom instruction and online classroom instruction.
 
I'm sorry, but you misquoted that. In 1962, Abraham Maslow said . . .

I paraphrased the original. If I quoted it, I'd have used these: " . . . "

Maslow meant that people who have a limited range of options tend to see those options as the solution for everything. The quote would apply to me if the only thing I knew about were online education.
You are quite invested in it.

I am very well acquainted with the theory and practice of the regular classroom. I have the capacity to compare the quality of regular classroom instruction and online classroom instruction.
I have a less complex evaluation process.

When I see new divers that put the tank on backwards, drive the yoke screw through the tank valve o-ring, dive with so much fog their mask looks like it's frosted, while walking across the bottom, don't understand how they "ran out of air" and generally completely miss basic concepts of SCUBA, I think it's time to stop doing whatever we're doing and move back to training methods that produced divers that don't do these things.

Terry
 
When I see new divers that put the tank on backwards, drive the yoke screw through the tank valve o-ring, dive with so much fog their mask looks like it's frosted, while walking across the bottom, don't understand how they "ran out of air" and generally completely miss basic concepts of SCUBA, I think it's time to stop doing whatever we're doing and move back to training methods that produced divers that don't do these things.
Terry

While I agree, that's discussion is completely aside from online vs. in person.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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