Diver Death in Cayman

[pilot fish]

gary lee, they call them DM if they are not trained as such? If they are trained as such, why are they not acting like DM? What *I* would do as an experienced diver is different than what a newbie, JUST CERTIFIED, DIVER WOULD DO, OR EXPECT? WAS THE GUIDE CALLED THAT AT SIGN IN AND HIS ROLE CLEARLY DEFINED?

Hi Pilot fish,

As I said, we all call the guides on Boats DiveMasters. and they really don't need that certification as they are only Guides. You surely don't believe that everytime you get in the water off a boat it's the Guide/Divemasters job to be responsible for you in the water and to make sure you don't run out of air, that your equipment you bought with you is in service etc. if so, you should make that clear to your next guide who will more than likely look kindly on you and take you under their wing.

Divers are responsible for themselves and to a lesser extent their buddies. not to other buddy pairs or divers in the water.

I am in possesion of some of the facts, not all of them but some and I am going to ask some questions later today regarding facts I think are important. Anything I can put up on here I will. I too am slightly worried that the guide would put himself in a situation where he could be in danger by diving with someone who has not dived for a year. The age is irrelivant in this instance. But is that fact? there are no depth police and there are no depth limits for divers. The issues I see with diving beyond the depth you are certified to go to are; and not in any particular order: Should you have a diving related injury your insurance will not cover you if you have dived beyond your training at any point during your holiday (Yes I know this to be fact). There are physiological effects of diving beyond 24metres such as Nitrogen Narcosis, as you go deeper there is Oxygen toxicity, Nitrogen Toxicity, Equipment conciderations. personal fitness. I could go on but my fingers aren't used to all this typing....

 

[pilot fish]

Amen. That is the point I'm trying to convey to gary lee.

If a boat crew member is introduced by the shop or Captain as "our Divemaster" it implies a level of care that "guide" does not; If no other briefing is given as to his role for the dive the group could fairly iterpret that they are under his care, especially if they are made to feel that they are required to dive with him. Wording can be very dangerous.
Our boat divemaster do not get in the water with passangers because local laws (insurance interpretation) make the boat responsible/liable for all that happens upderwater if he/she is also in the water (even if only to clear the prop). The interpretation is that if the crew remains on the boat then it is only a taxi service to the site. The Divemaster is then responsible for keeping a watch for returning divers and providing assistance/rescues as needed. Divemaster hired for guided dives (from the shop) by specific divers are seperate from the boat crew and brief only their group.

GaryLee, what is the stated (not implied) role of the boats DMs?

I hope that shop is ensuring that the DM in question is doing Ok.

Keith

 

[pilot fish]

have you interviewd this 16 diver and know that to be a fact? master Scuba Diver rating at 16? In what country and rated by whom? So, he did not dive in one year so that means he got the master scuba diver rating in 5 years and is traveling on a dive boat without a parent or supervisor? Right!

A 16year old who started diving at 10 has 300+ dives under his belt with a Master Scuba Diver Rating and 9 specialities. Always diving in UK Waters...

Nope, I wouldn't

Then again, the above isn't a fact

 

[GaryLee]

have you interviewd this 16 diver and know that to be a fact? master Scuba Diver rating at 16? In what country and rated by whom?

PilotFish LOL
You really should read the whole of my post.
I think the last line says it all

Thankyou for making me smile

 

[pilot fish]

Well, there you go. That IS what the main sticking point IS.

IF IT WAS NOT EVEN CLEAR TO YOU, HOW WAS IT CLEAR TO THE DIVERS AND THE VICTIM ON THAT BOAT??

Keith,
I actually don't have the answer to what the stated Role is but I will find out
Yes I am sure the operation is looking after the employee in question.

Thanks

 

[ScubaSteve]

He wanted to say he had done it one time and he thought he was safe and the DM never told he was not or didn't have the training so the guy probably thought he was.

This is the one line that for me says it all.

Should this ever end up in court which I very much doubt it will and if this can be proven not to be hearsay then Mr Neilson is going to be seen as having fallen foul of his own ego.

But you are reading something into the above statement that I do not THINK is there. The english/grammar in the first quote is poor so perhaps I am misunderstanding what is being said, but I interperet what they are saying as this:

The diver probably thought he was safe diving to those depths with a DM because the DM did not say he would be in danger.

While I am not saying that this is an acceptable view for ANY diver (because I it is NOT IMO), I do not necessarily believe that EGO had anything to do with it. I would more likely assume that the diver went on a TRUST ME dive where he put faith in something that obviously he should not have and had it end terribly.

 

[pilot fish]

Sorry to make you smile. I assure you, that was not my intention. I have it as fact, cannot tell you how, or whom, at this point, that the GUIDE, as your guys are now calling him, was NOT the 16 yr olds dive buddy. This will be proven by other divers on the boat and a video.

PilotFish LOL
You really should read the whole of my post.
I think the last line says it all

Thankyou for making me smile

 

[bsee65]

Now it seems to me that people are misunderstanding the role of a guide on a guided dive and that of a DiveMaster on a sanctioned course. They are two completely different roles. We all call our guides «àiveMasters but there is no reason why they should be legally as they are only there for Guidance.

GaryLee, I want to call you on this as well. The idea that you can use a title that has a specific connotation when it doesn't apply sounds like fraud. If you call your guide a DM, then they better be qualified and act like a DM.

What is the purpose of this game of semantics? Is it meant to confuse customers? To avoid some regulations that kick in when you have a DM that wouldn't apply with only a guide? To limit or avoid liability should an incident like the one currently under discussion occur? Your reference to their purpose "legally" certainly suggests that it has something to do with regulations and/or liability.

When you say "We call our guides DiveMasters", are you referring to DD specifically, all operators in GC in general, or some other organization of which you are a part?

-bob

 

[pilot fish]

GaryLee, what is the stated (not implied) role of the boats DMs?

I hope that shop is ensuring that the DM in question is doing Ok.

Keith

Kieths good question to garry lee

I actually don't have the answer to what the stated Role is

gary lee's honest answer. THAT, to me, says it all and tells me what level of importance I place on garry lee's input to this accident.

 

[ScubaSteve]

THAT, to me, says it all and tells me what level of importance I place on garry lee's input to this accident.

OK but fair is fair. You should write yourself off and me and everybody else then. I think we are all trying to have a discussion about something (even that is getting lost). I really do not think we are trying to solve anything anymore or prevent anything anymore......we are ALL just arguing semantics over facts or non-facts that nobody really has.