Diver Death in Cayman

[pilot fish]

There is a trend in this country where people posture themselves as professionals, open up businesses, ignore, or don't know, the standard of care they are duty bound to perform. They want to maximize proftis, while minimizing liability. Sorry, there is a standard of care and a reasonable expectation that someone that has the title, and function, of DM know what they are doing. NO attempt to make the role of this GUIDE/ DM clear to divers on that boat.

Would you at least agree that taking a brand new diver and a 16 year old that has not dove in a year to a 100 ft wall dive was reckless ?Do you further agree that the DIVE Op should have conveyed these facts to the DG/DM?

That right there is the problem IMNSHO. Today, we live in a world where people are preoccupied with taking the easy way out or getting the quick fix or immediate gratification or whatever you want to call it. People race through life and when something goes wrong, they immediately look to blame somebody else. People will also often times also look to see if they can make "somebody pay" - often financially and not revenge - which leads back to the easy life. Perhaps I have become nothing more than a large cynic but I wish people would stop immediately thinking that "a burnt lip from hot coffee entitles them to financial compensation" and start thinking more about situational awareness and what is required to maintain safety. Let the coffee COOL before drinking. If you need to read the outside of a coffee cup while driving to know the contents may be (or likely are) HOT....PUll over, turn off the car, wander into the forest and never return because you are hazard to not only yourself but everybody else out there.

The fault in this incident IMO falls 100% squarely on the shoulders of all three parties (Diver, Dive Guide/Master and Dive OP). Mistakes were made it seems and unfortunately somebody's loved one has left them behind emotionally broken. This is terrible but the reality is that all parties are likely just as guilty as the others.

 

[GaryLee]

Interesting how you are NOW calling the "DM" a Dive GUIDE. Is that was he was referred to at sign in? Didn't think so. Do YOU know for a fact that was made clear to ALL the divers?

Hi Pilot fish,

As I said, we all call the guides on Boats DiveMasters. and they really don't need that certification as they are only Guides. You surely don't believe that everytime you get in the water off a boat it's the Guide/Divemasters job to be responsible for you in the water and to make sure you don't run out of air, that your equipment you bought with you is in service etc. if so, you should make that clear to your next guide who will more than likely look kindly on you and take you under their wing.

Divers are responsible for themselves and to a lesser extent their buddies. not to other buddy pairs or divers in the water.

I am in possesion of some of the facts, not all of them but some and I am going to ask some questions later today regarding facts I think are important. Anything I can put up on here I will. I too am slightly worried that the guide would put himself in a situation where he could be in danger by diving with someone who has not dived for a year. The age is irrelivant in this instance. But is that fact? there are no depth police and there are no depth limits for divers. The issues I see with diving beyond the depth you are certified to go to are; and not in any particular order: Should you have a diving related injury your insurance will not cover you if you have dived beyond your training at any point during your holiday (Yes I know this to be fact). There are physiological effects of diving beyond 24metres such as Nitrogen Narcosis, as you go deeper there is Oxygen toxicity, Nitrogen Toxicity, Equipment conciderations. personal fitness. I could go on but my fingers aren't used to all this typing....

 

[kgault]

Now it seems to me that people are misunderstanding the role of a guide on a guided dive and that of a DiveMaster on a sanctioned course. They are two completely different roles. We all call our guides «àiveMasters but there is no reason why they should be legally as they are only there for Guidance.

If a boat crew member is introduced by the shop or Captain as "our Divemaster" it implies a level of care that "guide" does not; If no other briefing is given as to his role for the dive the group could fairly iterpret that they are under his care, especially if they are made to feel that they are required to dive with him. Wording can be very dangerous.

Our boat divemaster do not get in the water with passangers because local laws (insurance interpretation) make the boat responsible/liable for all that happens upderwater if he/she is also in the water (even if only to clear the prop). The interpretation is that if the crew remains on the boat then it is only a taxi service to the site. The Divemaster is then responsible for keeping a watch for returning divers and providing assistance/rescues as needed. Divemaster hired for guided dives (from the shop) by specific divers are seperate from the boat crew and brief only their group.

GaryLee, what is the stated (not implied) role of the boats DMs?

I hope that shop is ensuring that the DM in question is doing Ok.

Keith

 

[ScubaSteve]

There is a trend in this country where people posture themselves as professionals, open up businesses, ignore, or don't know, the standard of care they are duty bound to perform. They want to maximize proftis, while minimizing liability. Sorry, there is a standard of care and a reasonable expectation that someone that has the title, and function, of DM know what they are doing. NO attempt to make the role of this GUIDE/ DM clear to divers on that boat.

Would you at least agree that taking a brand new diver and a 16 year old that has not dove in a year to a 100 ft wall dive was reckless ?Do you further agree that the DIVE Op should have conveyed these facts to the DG/DM?

Actually PF, I think I agree with a lot of what you have said. I stated things very similar to what you have said in an earlier post of mine.

 

[GaryLee]

Would you at least agree that taking a brand new diver and a 16 year old that has not dove in a year to a 100 ft wall dive was reckless ?Do you further agree that the DIVE Op should have conveyed these facts to the DG/DM?

A 16year old who started diving at 10 has 300+ dives under his belt with a Master Scuba Diver Rating and 9 specialities. Always diving in UK Waters...

Nope, I wouldn't

Then again, the above isn't a fact

 

[GaryLee]

GaryLee, what is the stated (not implied) role of the boats DMs?

I hope that shop is ensuring that the DM in question is doing Ok.

Keith

Keith,
I actually don't have the answer to what the stated Role is but I will find out
Yes I am sure the operation is looking after the employee in question.

Thanks

 

[Riger]

What the DM/DG presented themselves as, and the exact nature of the service offered/expected/interpreted/achieved was and/or should have been will probably remain a point of contention for at least another 5 pages.

Gary, if you have access to inside info, I'd be really keen to see the computer dive profile of the victim and any one of the 100' group if that is at all possible. I am keen to see at what point he departed from the "other" profile.

Another thing I'd be keen to know is if the victim was using his own dive computer, if not then whose was it and what make it is. Do you know if it was set to metric or "the other one"?

I accept that you may not have this info at hand, however, if it should come within reach then .....

Thanks in Advance
Richard

 

[Seanpaul]

Interesting how you are NOW calling the "DM" a Dive GUIDE. Is that was he was referred to at sign in? Didn't think so. Do YOU know for a fact that was made clear to ALL the divers? There is evidence he did not even perform the duty of GUIDE either.

You think it was appropriate for this "DM"/ "Guide" to take a newbie diver and a 16 yr old who had not been in the water for a year to 100 ft wall dive with many hundreds of feet below them, with very iffy bouyancy?
It is also clear that GUIDE, as you call him, did NOT make much clear and did NOT hold a sufficient pre dive briefing. That fact will be borne out by other divers on that boat.

Pilot fish, with all due respect DM is a cert level, his role was guide. I know you have not dived the Red Sea. In Sharm your dive guides are instructor level. DMs, if they are along have been relegated to the rear. I have yet to find a "DM" guide there. The point is the people on the guided dive don't sign all the paperwork for an "instructor level" dive/course. On a guided dive - unless they tell you otherwise - you can dive a different profile than the guide, BUT you stay with your buddy at all times. New divers would not know this unless they were told this. I don't know that any facts of what was said in the dive briefing will be borne out - nor do you. I do indeed think -if everything presented turns out to be true- that it was "irresponsible" to take such new divers on this dive (where do you get the "not dived in one year" tho for the 16 year old? - I missed that in the post). However being irresponsible is a long way from legally responsible. Morally a whole nother story.

Also if I may just make a comment to board etiquette, I find it difficult to read your posts when you are SHOUTING AT ME... Any chance you would be willing to tone it down, I personally would appreciate it. Thank you. :cool2:

 

[GaryLee]

What the DM/DG presented themselves as, and the exact nature of the service offered/expected/interpreted/achieved was and/or should have been will probably remain a point of contention for at least another 5 pages.

Gary, if you have access to inside info, I'd be really keen to see the computer dive profile of the victim and any one of the 100' group if that is at all possible. I am keen to see at what point he departed from the "other" profile.

Another thing I'd be keen to know is if the victim was using his own dive computer, if not then whose was it and what make it is. Do you know if it was set to metric or "the other one"?

I accept that you may not have this info at hand, however, if it should come within reach then .....

Thanks in Advance
Richard

I'd love to see the Dive profile as well. Unfortunately though as with all cases of Dive Fatality the equipment is likely to be safely locked away where only the relevant authorities can get to it. As Mr Neilson was an American and fosterboxermom seemed quite happy talking in feet I would surmise that the computer would have been set to Imperial.

 

[GaryLee]

He wanted to say he had done it one time and he thought he was safe and the DM never told he was not or didn't have the training so the guy probably thought he was.

This is the one line that for me says it all.

Should this ever end up in court which I very much doubt it will and if this can be proven not to be hearsay then Mr Neilson is going to be seen as having fallen foul of his own ego.