MARP Price Fixing Update - Consumers Win!

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

If all the Scubapro dealers in an area got together and agreed to a common pricing scheme, then that would clearly be illegal price fixing. In this case, the manufacturer did it for them creating the same situation. I don't believe it really matters that you can always go buy another brand and avoid those shops that are practicing price fixing.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. We are on the opposite side of this issue and you are probably as likely to convince me of your point as I am to convince you of mine. I will give you an example of what I consider to be price fixing. In Canada, there is a system of supply management on certain agriculture products (eggs, chicken, turkey and dairy). Farmers are basically guaranteed a price that is managed by central body. Retailers are then forced (by legislation) that they can only purchase products for resale from this central body. In exchange for this protection from market swings, the farmers have to buy a right to produce it (called quota). So as a consumer in Canada, if I want to buy a turkey for Christmas then I have to pay a much higher price then say if I were in Michigan. Now this is what I consider price fixing since I really don't have other options. You don't need to have SP regs to enjoy diving, you have other choices.

In a way, I think I actually benefit from the anti-competitive practices of so many scuba manufacturers. The non-transferable warranties and deceptions they run on new divers helps keep the cost of my preferred fairly old used regulators and other equipment quite low. But I still hate to see new divers being taken advantage of and I hate to listen to some of the crap shops spew in defense of these policies and agreements.

We all have our pet peeves - mine include crappy training, LDS staff that are unknowledgeable but pretend they do know what they are talking about, and on personal level (since this is what I make my living at) - salespeople who think the only way to sell is on price alone.
 
Quotes from earlier in this thread, from folks who mistakenly believe that being a libertarian should allow entire industries to abuse citizens, and then hide behind armies of white-collar crime lawyers who justify all actions within their entirely self-regulated industry:

"If you support this Maryland law, you are supporting further intrusion by the government into formerly private affairs."

"...minimum pricing policies is expanding government control, not reducing it, under some wackadoo argument that expanding government control will in some way result in greater free enterprise."

...it is nonsense to claim it [laws against price-fixing] is part of our grand tradition of individual liberty."

WOW, some folks on this thread obviously missed elementary school civics (not you, Canadians). Ahem...
"Class, who was
Teddy Roosevelt?
ANSWER: "A Republican president who was called the Trust-Buster over 100 years ago"

HERE'S AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL LESSON PLAN, OR...

...the remedial version:
Teddy_R.jpg

YouTube Trust-Buster!

To argue that price-fixing occurs in a vacuum of other corrupting forces in the marketplace, whether the dive industry or across all industries, is cunning sophistry, worthy of Elmer Gantry.

It has been proven, over and over, that without antitrust laws, reliance upon the civil legal system "to enforce contracts and punish fraud, theft, etc.," after the horses are out of the barn, does not work; judges get bought-off, etc. Weak antitrust laws inevitably and repeatedly encourages more collusion between participants. The drafters of the Sherman Act saw, irrefutably, that price fixing was inexorably linked to both collusions and malfeasances. The motivation to innovate is reduced (i.e. why compete among friends, we're all fat and happy, let's keep the government, representing consumer interests, OUT). Industries became cartels, controlled by oligarchies.

To examine price-fixing's impacts on the dive industry in a vacuum, ignoring other facts, is a bald-faced ploy to obfuscate years of fraud. We're not talking about the cost of high-fashion leather purses (i.e. Leegin), but life-support gear and training in an ENTIRELY unregulated industry. Price fixing is the #1 mechanism that's allowed those at the top of the industry's pyramid to keep their "troops" in line, never mind that it's not in the long-term interest of the troops themselves.

DA argues that price-fixing allows companies to remain strong (buy an AL or SP regulator, they'll be around in 25 years when you need servicing). But price-fixing creates de facto franchisees, who become overly dependant upon "Big Daddy." Got defective equipment? Shhhh... let's keep this quiet between friends (dealers / senior service techs) and not rock the boat, because that could hurt business (and maybe we'll drop your dealership). SO THEY DON'T TELL THE TRUTH AND LEAVE A DEFECTIVE COMPUTER ON THE MARKET FOR 6 YEARS - EVEN AFTER A RECALL!

Why embrace a system that encourages and rewards corruption to fester for years? Scubapro's actions unnecessarily put at risk first-responders and consumers. The book "Nation of Secrets" reveals how Brett Gilliam, others at Scubapro and their lawyers lied and hid their knowingly defective computer. Publicly, Scubapro blamed a 65-year-old executive who was retiring (delaying payment of his costly "parachute"), but ultimately paid him a settlement.

Sure, the legal system punished Scubapro, after the fact. But the few people in the retail channel who knew about the problem did nothing effective to get the computer off the market (i.e. don't get the oligarch mad, it'll ruin my career). The trial dragged on for years, as industry defense tactics always rely upon unethical motions to delay (i.e. plaintiff attrition). The judge threw one defense law firm off the case for ethical misconduct. (And in 2009, Gilliam editorializes about the dearth of innovation in the dive industry.)

The business model of the modern dive industry, in the USA, was shaped by John Cronin, who was simultaneously CEO of PADI and US Divers (Aqualung USA) from 1969 to 1985, and president of DEMA from 1971 to 1993, and 1999 to 2002. PADI has a history of cozy relationships with a few dominant equipment companies, which don't seem to compete with each other very much. But they sure have a history of colluding to quash outside innovators. (e.g. McClure v. Scubapro; USA v. Scuba Retailers Association; Nova v. PADI; State of Washington v. Scubapro and more.)

Why must your LDS become financially beholden to such pirates? Why can't dealers cherry-pick gear they consider superior, instead of getting stuck on buying "programs." (Just like consumers can cherry-pick who they buy gear and training from.) Few other industries have such concocted buyer programs, which are just devious ways around antitrust laws. Dealers must "qualify" for the next-higher discount level by choking on more inventory than a dealer can reasonably expect to sell in a season. But "Big Daddy" acts as a bank to many, giving 9-month terms. But the real agenda is keeping dealers beholden (ultimately weaker) to coerce cooperation of locking out smaller innovative manufacturers (e.g. "cramming" and "tying" excess inventory in some product categories). Major brands have dropped dealers / changed their discount rate if they bought anything from "Brand-X." Ultimately, consumers were victimized in manners far worse than over-paying for leather bags (i.e. Leegin).

Antitrust laws exist to create a dynamic INstability between retailers and manufacturers. To prevent over-cozy relationships that inevitably and irrefutably evolves into collusions that hurt consumers. 21st-century robber barons wrap their argument in the flag of righteous free enterprise (i.e. self-interest), but lack facts to back their argument. Pay no attention to the men behind the curtain! There's no denying: price-fixing is the first domino that begins greater harms, while doing harms itself.

Leegin determined that litigation could occur to argue harms done by price fixing, after the fact (i.e. rule of reason). But the Supreme's 5-vote majority never examined that such plaintiff action would be impossibly expensive, even for state governments, let alone smaller innovators. In any case, consumers continue being harmed while hoped-for litigation never gains traction.

Example from other industries of harms caused by Leegin? Big-Pharma price-fixes drugs for years after their patents have expired -- sometimes costing 20X the retail price charged in other countries -- by paying hundreds of millions of dollars to the makers of generic drugs who agree not to compete. The FTC has been litigating cases, but new laws must be passed. Yes, you read right -- ONLY in the USA can Big-Pharma charge so much. If you're crying about banks getting bailed out, how is this not another form of tax (i.e. patients subsidizing Big Pharma)? Some argue that pharmaceutical research is expensive. But facts show the money does not go to R&D, but instead to buy smaller innovators who've already accomplished R&D. Then there's a net layoff of researchers, so there's less likelihood of future breakthroughs. "Responsibility to shareholders" is killing future innovations. This downward spiral is all courtesy of weak antitrust laws.

Some folks on this thread speak of the Sherman act, drafted in 1890, as if it had been enacted just yesterday. I guess these "Grand Traditionalists" desire a further roll back. Are you guys also claiming that "individualist traditions" were eroded by the emancipation proclamation and women's suffrage? Hey, those were the days when an individualist could go into business and really enjoy low labor costs! Instead, the oligarchic structure of this industry commits fraud by having surrogates promise career-potential to under-trained / under-informed would-be dive pros. Then everyone stays silent while they get themselves and first-time divers hurt. For instance, by practicing emergency swimming ascents the wrong way, per a 10-year study from some "wakadoo" Europeans, who found pulmonary barotraumas (PBT) or arterial gas embolism (AGE) injury rates up to 1,500X more likely during training. BTW, this correlates to a time when PADI has become more dominant in Europe, displacing training that traditionally has been club-based, such as BSAC in the UK.

To the posters on this thread who pine for the days of "grand traditionalist" robber barons, I guess you think that Teddy Roosevelt was just intrusive big government? Personally, thank God for Teddy, or Yellow Stone and Yosemite would be laced with rail lines and freeways leading to foreclosed homes.
 
Ok, I'm curious - can someone explain what harm MAP/MARP is causing to consumers?

If the answer is higher prices for gear - my view is then buy another line of equipment.

If the answer is it allows unsuspecting new divers to be taken advantage of by unscrupulus LDS staff and owners - you are going to have those type of business people without MAP/MARP too.

In my simplistic view the anti-trust argument is that consumers need protection from big business's. But I am having trouble seeing what exactly they need protection from? Maybe this is a naive approach but perhaps there is a need for protection for small business's (read - LDS) from big business's that just want to commoditize scuba equipment. Yeah, this last point is probably going to go over like a lead balloon with this group.
 
Last edited:
And if all of the manufacturers agreed to set MARP high, what then?

The barrier to entry to a new market would make it very, very difficult for new players to come into the market.

Remember...in the end all systems, even the free market one, is designed to benefit us, mankind, not the system itself.

Not at all. If every company set a high, inflexible price, it would create an excellent business opportunity for a new company to come in with a different (ie non-marp) pricing system/business plan. Or, for that matter, for one of the established companies to change their marp plan to a non-marp plan. Business is fluid...legislatively eliminating a business style is a blunt tool.

As for the OP, his silly "commie" comment lost him any credibility. Ironically, his attempt to channel a digital McCarthy leads him to support legislation that limits a manufacturer's free choice, and the choice of retail stores and customers to do business with that manufacturer. The proof is in the pudding -- ScubaPro sets minimum prices and produces good products that are very popular. If someone has a problem with a set minimum price, they always have options of buying from other manufacturers.

In other words, this legislation is a complex solution to a non-existent problem.
 
As purley a scuba customer, I think it would be intersting to note how many of the people arguing for MAP/MARP are LDS owners/employees, instructors employed by shops.

I think it is interesting to note that many of the people arguing for MAP/MARP have a connection to the runnings of a retail business and understand what it can take to run a retail business profitably.

Just as a note, I don't have a retail store, but I had a retail store (another industry) and worked retail in other industries. Bargain pricing, even with great service, means you've got to move a LOT of product to maintain a profit long term.

For me personally, running a charter boat in a destination area, the more divers out there the better, the more stores the better, and concentrating the business into fewer less expensive stores will likely decrease the supply of trained divers over time in my opinion. I want to see as many divers as possible, and I don't care where the gear comes from, but killing off smaller stores in many communities likely will leave a lot of holes when it comes to training and will affect businesses like mine in the long term. Offthewall is apparently growing well in a well populated area because he discounts, my suspicions are that if everyone ran at his price structure he might not fare so well in a system where the other stores charge the same price. It's been my perception over the years that only the largest of the discounters tend to survive long term.
 
If all the Scubapro dealers in an area got together and agreed to a common pricing scheme, then that would clearly be illegal price fixing. In this case, the manufacturer did it for them creating the same situation. I don't believe it really matters that you can always go buy another brand and avoid those shops that are practicing price fixing.

In a way, I think I actually benefit from the anti-competitive practices of so many scuba manufacturers. The non-transferable warranties and deceptions they run on new divers helps keep the cost of my preferred fairly old used regulators and other equipment quite low. But I still hate to see new divers being taken advantage of and I hate to listen to some of the crap shops spew in defense of these policies and agreements.

Are you confusing price fixing at an industry level and at the company level?

Scuba is an industry. Scuba Pro is a single company.

Fast food is an industry. Jack in the Box is a single company. Jack in the Box has every right to set a common price for all of it's restaurants if they wish, and then can compete against what other companies are doing, and can live with the consequences.

Scuba Pro can dictate what it wants it's product sold for, and then business owners and consumers can decide whether they want to pay that price or choose other offerings from other companies in the Scuba industry. Scuba Pro will have to live with the consequences.

Were anti-trust laws put in to keep "collusion" from occurring at the company level, or at an industry wide level? I believe it's the latter.
 
You are confusing price fixing at an industry level and at the company level.

Scuba is an industry. Scuba Pro is a single company.

Fast food is an industry. Jack in the Box is a single company. Jack in the Box has every right to set a common price for all of it's restaurants if they wish, and then can compete against what other companies are doing, and can live with the consequences.

Scuba Pro can dictate what it wants it's product sold for, and then business owners and consumers can decide whether they want to pay that price or choose other offerings from other companies in the Scuba industry. Scuba Pro will have to live with the consequences.

Were anti-trust laws put in to keep "collusion" from occurring at the company level, or at an industry wide level? I believe it's the latter.

Jack in the Box (and McDonalds) and most others with common fixed pricing are franchises, not independent businesses. That makes a world of difference in what is price fixing and what is management prerogative. The LDSs that sell Scubapro products are not part of the Scubapro company.

But I do understand that they can, in this USA market, get away with these anti-competition actions. I also understand that it is not legal in many foreign markets. I am not happy that they can and I intend to express that dissatisfaction when appropriate. I am pleased to see MD take an action against it. I have my doubts as to whether it will be successful. Whatever happen, in the long run it is a step in the right direction for the consumers. This is just one of a number of things I would like to see change in the scuba industry for the good of the divers.
 
In other words, this legislation is a complex solution to a non-existent problem.
From your lips to God's ear, that it would be so.

Dominant forces in the dive industry have colluded for decades. Read the prosecutions by the Department of Justice and Federal Trade Commission. The dive industry was caught hobbling innovation with astonishing levels of collusion (retailer boycott, ad lockout, blackballing orders in newsletters to resorts, directly involving training agencies and retailers).
The DOJ case from 1996 involved hundreds of people in the dive industry all colluding to prevent a snorkel from gaining traction in the market -- one that eliminated rebreathing carbon dioxide. Why such efforts for a lowly snorkel? Trivial problem you may think? Actually...
There are a number of peer-reviewed medical studies that prove most people who are prone to panic attacks are also acutely sensitive to increased levels of CO2. They can be perfectly calm, sitting in a chair, then breath ~20% to 25% CO2 and instantly - WHAM - full blown panic. Studies show a significant percentage of the population has some form of anxiety disorder specifically triggered by CO2 [20% of women and 10% of men; an even greater percentage of children are at risk]

Surprisingly, I've never read anything about this in the literature of diving medicine - just the broad statement that CO2 can induce panic. But nothing warning dive professionals that children should not use adult-sized snorkels, even though this phenomenon has been well studied above-water since at least 1986. Here's some links...
I believe it's the latter.

Actually, it's both.
 
Jack in the Box (and McDonalds) and most others with common fixed pricing are franchises, not independent businesses. That makes a world of difference in what is price fixing and what is management prerogative. The LDSs that sell Scubapro products are not part of the Scubapro company.

It wouldn't surprise me if the LDSs that sell Scubapro products are very likely to be considered to be an extension of Scubapro by both Scubapro and probably the courts. Aren't the shops signing dealership agreements that in effect make them an agent/franchisee for Scubapro? As such, Scubapro will have an interest in maintaining some control over how their product gets to the end user as they will be liable for things their agent does.
 
There is nothing wrong with a company, any company, any individual telling another similiar enitity to sell their product for no less than x dollars and make that a condition of selling their product. The person selling product has a choice to agree or not, the person buying also has a choice expressed in their purchase.

Anti trust legisalation protects consumers against all or a sizeable portion of resellers/manufacturers getting together to artifically inflate or control a price for their product. As this does not currently exist in the dive industry it is contary to the constitution for the state to interfer in the business of it's citizens in this manner.

This law is an example of the nanny state, government holding your hand beacuase it knows better than you, because you can't make your own decisions. For some reason people are gladdened by the state's intervention.

I am all for the state saying to sell dive gear it has to be this safe and I don't think that an OPEC council for dive gear is acceptable either. But unless the state is able to show that there is some seller or manufacturer management of prices and that it is much greater than their cost, then the state should stay out of my business.

If you call yourself free market I really think you need to also walk the walk on that issue before you come here championing another round of state intervention.
 

Back
Top Bottom