Roatan, what not to take?

[adjuster-jd]

I'm jealous of the nice sunny weather on Roatan now. It rained almost every day I was there a couple weeks ago...
Somehow in 23 dives I never got around to diving Newman's or Cocoview wall. (Our boat dropped some folks on Newman's one day, but I was shore diving at that time - didnt make it past the Prince Albert.). I guess that's more for me to see next year...
Enjoy your stay..

 

[Doc]

I gotta tell you I think Newman's Wall is a better shallow dive than a wall dive, if that's possible. I've been checking out some of those nooks and crannies you mentioned, great stuff!

Leave some for us, arriving 4/4

I never got around to diving Newman's or Cocoview wall.

As you dive from FIBR, shame on you! Some of the best stuff is closest to your favorite haunt.

The area atop the wall on Newmans is an incredible night dive area when it is flat and calm. It might not look too inviting in the day- as it has been ponded for eons by surf, and in the last 300 years by wayward vessels (seems to be an excellent place to have your ship pounded to bits.

Note also the area just to the WNW of the FIBR Gazebo. Between the beach area and that 80' long rock wall... there is a shallow oval basin... I call it the "Eel 500". The place is lousy with Moray Eels.

Wikimapia - Let's describe the whole world! Where you will have an interactive version of this map...

Nobody ever goes to either place. Not hardly nobody, anyway.

 

[pelagic_by_nature]

I'll be arriving in 8 days:banana: Can't wait.

 

[emttim]

Hey guys, I got to thinking after reading this thread of actually working out four theoretical dives to see where I'm at with air, and then with EAN36, just to see if it's possible to do this theoretical dive profile and also to see about nitrogen absorption with it. First of all, both trains of thought are correct: you can dive 5 times per day or maybe more with air. Obviously, you can also do that with nitrox.

Here's what I worked up for air.

1st dive at 50' for 45 min from 10:00 - 10:45 AM leaves you in PG of O, after a 1 hour SI, you're in PG of E.

2nd dive at 50' for 45 min from 11:45 - 12:30 PM leaves you in PG of U, after a 1 hour SI, you're in PG of H.

Lunch time.

3rd dive at 50' for 45 min from 1:30 - 2:15 PM leaves you in PG of W, after a 1 hour SI, you're in PG of I.

1st dive at 50' for 45 min from 3:15 - 4:00 PM leaves you in PG of X, after a 3 hour SI, you're in PG of A.

Dinner time and then night diving at the diver's discretion.

Now here's what I worked up for EAN36.

1st dive at 50' for 45 min from 10:00 - 10:45 AM leaves you in PG of H, after a 1 hour SI, you're in PG of B. O2 exp 15%, total O2 exp 15%.

2nd dive at 50' for 45 min from 11:45 - 12:30 PM leaves you in PG of L, after a 1 hour SI, you're in PG of C. O2 exp 15%, total O2 exp 30%

Lunch time.

3rd dive at 50' for 45 min from 1:30 - 2:15 PM leaves you in PG of M, after a 1 hour SI, you're in PG of D. O2 exp 15%, total O2 exp 45%.

1st dive at 50' for 45 min from 3:15 - 4:00 PM leaves you in PG of N, after a 3 hour SI, you're in PG of A. O2 exp 15%, total O2 exp 60%

Dinner time and then night diving at the diver's discretion.


So as you can see, both profiles will work. My question is for you air divers who don't want to spend the money on nitrox, or think it's a waste, is are you willing to risk your life with a far more aggressive profile as far as nitrogen absorption goes in order to save on the hassle of nitrox? There's no right or wrong answer here, it's your life, but as for my own I will be taking the more conservative profile of EAN36 when I go to Roatan.

By the way, anyone who's been to CCV want to shed some light on weights and tanks? I'm assuming I don't need to bring them right? What kind of tanks do they have, aluminum 80s? Anything smaller like aluminum 63s if the diver can stay down for plenty long with less air so less weight? Are weights provided? Are they soft lead pouches? What kind of exposure protection in July, 3mm shortie work fine? Thanks!

 

[CODMAN]

Doesn't Cocoview use Eanx32???? I might be wrong...

Most of the diving in Roatan is multilevel, with nice long periods at the end of the dive in shallow water (less than 30 feet). This will reduce greatly the amount of Nitrogen absorbed compared to your square profile simulation. But hey, it's still interesting to see the numbers!

Cheers!

 

[emttim]

Doesn't Cocoview use Eanx32???? I might be wrong...

Most of the diving in Roatan is multilevel, with nice long periods at the end of the dive in shallow water (less than 30 feet). This will reduce greatly the amount of Nitrogen absorbed compared to your square profile simulation. But hey, it's still interesting to see the numbers!

Cheers!

Fair enough, but I can't really say for sure what the multilevel profile would be for a "typical" dive since I haven't been there yet. I just went with a theoretical profile because...well, it's theoretical. As far as EAN32 being used instead, I'm pretty sure not much would change as far as O2 exposure and pressure groups...maybe just one or two letters difference and 50% total O2 exp intead of 60%.

So would it be fair to say a theoretical dive would look more like say for a 45 min dive something such as 15 min at 50', 10 min at 40', 20 min at 30'? It'd be nice to get a more accurate indicator of what the diving will be like if possible. I have no problem using nitrox if it's needed, but on the other hand, it's a pain in the ass because it involves more calculations, need to monitor O2 exposure, need to analyze each mix and may take longer to fill. If it's unnecessary, I don't want to waste time with it.

 

[Doc]

You make a fair argument in your use of manual tables.

Before you hang your hat on the obvious mathematical result, keep using them to plan your week's dives while really diving at an AI resort or Live Aboard. If you aren't sitting out for 24 hours by day three, the tables say you are dead.

Using nitrox will likely give you that extra margin of safety, especially if you dive on an air computer.


Along the lines of CodMan's post- dives are multilevel.....

You say you are going to CCV. Here are the numbers I would use. You're pretty quick with the tables, run these numbers, will'ya?

1st dive at 50' for 45 min from 10:00 - 10:45 AM
85' max, 45' avg, 1 hr BT, 0840>0940

2nd dive at 50' for 45 min from 11:45 - 12:30 PM
30 min SI, 55' max, 32' avg, 1 hr BT, 10:10>11:10

Lunch time.

3rd dive at 50' for 45 min from 1:30 - 2:15 PM
3 hour SI, 2:10>3:10, 60' max, 38' avg

I drag you to go along on the 4th dive
30 min SI, 3:40>4:40 (1 hr BT) , 60' max, 28' avg

dive 5, night dive... you think you were just going to sit at the bar?
3:35 SI, 20:20>21:30, (1 hr 10 BT) 55' max, 22' avg

There's no right or wrong answer here, it's your life, but as for my own I will be taking the more conservative profile of EAN36 when I go to Roatan.

You will be using EAN32, that I understand. It is, though, the same profile.

By the way, anyone who's been to CCV want to shed some light on weights and tanks? I'm assuming I don't need to bring them right?

That tanks and weights deal should be an assumption anywhere you go to a resort. They have a few 63's and always 80 tanks and hard weights. There is a move amongst habitues to stockpile loaner soft weights, but I do not know if that has gotten off the ground. The 63's may or may not be nitrox, they may be in service at any given time as all tanks go through constant and periodic inspection and overhaul.

What kind of exposure protection in July, 3mm shortie work fine? Thanks!

Only an individual can say what will work best for them. Expect temps to be pretty warm, 82-84+ degrees. Remember, diving 5 a day can really make you cool off, nitrox science/anecdotals or not.

I have no problem using nitrox if it's needed, but on the other hand, it's a pain in the ass because it involves more calculations, need to monitor O2 exposure, need to analyze each mix and may take longer to fill. If it's unnecessary, I don't want to waste time with it.

The tanks are filled for you. Analyzing it will take less than one minute.

If you want to, by all means, have at it. My view of it comes from my jaded perspective of how EAN certifications were created, what it all meant, and what was the reason. If I really need it, I use it. On the dive profiles above in blue, air works fine.

 

[emttim]

You make a fair argument in your use of manual tables.

Before you hang your hat on the obvious mathematical result, keep using them to plan your week's dives while really diving at an AI resort or Live Aboard. If you aren't sitting out for 24 hours by day three, the tables say you are dead.

I'm confused, where do you see on the manual table that after day 3 the table is saying you're out of the game for 24 hours? The only thing I see is minimum SI stipulations if an ending PG after a dive is W or X for the first dive or Y or Z for a subsequent dive.

Honestly I wasn't going to go strictly off those mathematical numbers anyway since they're theoretical. I'm an economist; I'm more interested in the relation of two values (in this case, pressure groups for air and pressure groups for nitrox) to each other rather than either value's actual number/letter. When it comes to theory and assumed variables, comparison is about the only useful thing you can get out of number crunching.

Using nitrox will likely give you that extra margin of safety, especially if you dive on an air computer.

Yeah except that seems excessively conservative to the point of being unnecessary. And it could kill you by not keeping track of oxygen exposure.

Along the lines of CodMan's post- dives are multilevel.....

You say you are going to CCV. Here are the numbers I would use. You're pretty quick with the tables, run these numbers, will'ya?

I don't see how I'd be able to do anything with these numbers since the wheel requires X depth at Y time for each of the levels of a multilevel dive rather than average and max depths. I'm sure if you had an equation that could calculate a pressure group out of max and avg depth, I could get a rough idea of the difference. I'd definitely be interested to see what the difference is...it took you time to make those suggested profiles and it'd provide some useful insight too. I'm not concerned with getting precision results here any way. Realistically, if I can keep away from any PG greater than U or V, and keep it in the yellow or below for nitrogen absorption on my computer then I'm happy. I could care less what gas mix I use to do so.

Only an individual can say what will work best for them. Expect temps to be pretty warm, 82-84+ degrees. Remember, diving 5 a day can really make you cool off, nitrox science/anecdotals or not.

Yeah, I know multiple diving will take it's toll on body temperature. I just honestly have no idea what it's going to be like or whether a 3 mil shortie will be enough. The warmest diving I've ever done is 66 degrees in Lake Tahoe. As far as nitrox science goes, I don't necessarily believe that a diver will feel "more refreshed" after a dive or anything like that due to the higher oxygen content in the gas. Personally, I think that's the placebo effect...sure it may theoretically be possible for a higher O2 % to cause the effects people claim but I'd have to see scientific studies and publications to believe it.

The tanks are filled for you. Analyzing it will take less than one minute.

If you want to, by all means, have at it. My view of it comes from my jaded perspective of how EAN certifications were created, what it all meant, and what was the reason. If I really need it, I use it. On the dive profiles above in blue, air works fine.

Well, I guess a better question would have been how long it takes them to fill nitrox tanks. One thing I hate about nitrox is that, where you can get an air fill in about 5-10 min, some shops will take several hours to get a nitrox tank filled. If it means waiting a long amount of time for the nitrox then it's not worth it to me regardless; especially if I'm at a resort and time is valuable.

I understand your outlook on nitrox since PADI created the Enriched Air course as a money maker specialty, and that it has been overhyped to the point where the questionable benefits are ignored in favor of diving the "cool" gas, but there are some uses for it. I actually find it ironic that PADI hypes it up so much these days since they condemned it as unsafe and dangerous before they created the Enriched Air course.

Nitrox really has little to no benefit unless the diver is doing either a deep dive or he/she is making a lot of repetitive dives with short surface intervals where the depth exceeds 40 or 50'. I mainly use it for deep dives to help limit nitrogen narcosis and have a more conservative profile as far as nitrogen absorption goes. I'll admit that I overuse it myself though and its often unnecessary. I definitely appreciate your input on CCV though. I'm hoping it lives up to everything I've heard about it.

 

[Doc]

The tanks stand ready for you to take, analyze and label with your name and data at any time.

About the only time they run short of tanks is early in any given week if several people decide to expedite their clerical/testing tasks and begin hoarding six tanks at one time. It is suggested to obtain and analyze two tanks at the beginning of each half day of diving. Store them in your gear locker and the boat guys will load them aboard.

As to our hypothetical above, you absolutely do have the correct answer. Without figuring the dive as a multi-level, my "typical CCV dives" can not be put on a table or a wheel. Obviously, we rely heavily on our computers, especially in the model above.

The 24 hour deal? Sure, it's there, but you have to read the fine print. "Herself" would work her tables after every dive, doing four a day, and logging it right next to her computer data. I asked her why she was doing that after "day three", where she had literally "run off the map".

On Day Three, by her tables, she had violated some fine print: ....(if you blow a deco stop)... "Upon surfacing, the diver must remain out of the water for at least 24 hours....

She looked pretty good, although tired, and her computer said she was okay as well. With knowledge of the tables and their meaning firmly in mind, she now stores them in the basement. The computer gets new batteries each and every 6 months.

I was diving in Bikini Atoll many years ago with a fairly well known scion of women's diving. She did one dive and for fun, buried her computer in the sand under a famous wreck. The computer violated her and was flashing angrily. She "fixed it" by removing the batteries and having it reset to zero. I kid you not. Better than hanging it over the side on a string for a few hours... no, not really.

To go back to your suggested resolution, I dive the profiles I sketched in blue and hit high in the Yellow Pixels by dive #4 at about 4:30 p.m. Only once in many hundreds of "4th dives" at CCV have I ever gone into deco.

It was all over this critter who lives under a ledge at 70fsw on Newman's Wall, just aft of the Prince Albert.

This Yellow Tailed Jawfish is such a big deal (apparently) that it lured me into deco. I served my allotted time at indicated depths, but as I was chilling at 15fsw and waiting the clock, I was running low on air. I didn't want to do the dog paddle into the resort, so I tagged up with another old timer from CCV and breathed off of her tank as we spent another 15 minutes dawdling in.

The point of it? You will soon see that the South Side Roatan profiles are best kept shallow- that's where the really cool stuff is. So, when you start running the tables for 70' @ 1hr BT, you can get mathematically dead pretty quickly. On a less inflammatory note, your computer will likely analyze your dives and show you that you are well within safe limits, air or geezer gas (thanks for getting the veiled reference!).

I am not so sure I would blame PADI per se, but they did react fairly quickly to a growing demand for use of voodoo gas. Requiring actual dives, I couldn't figure, but... If we were only so quick to abandon the well intentioned wheel, offer Ikelite housingsfor the eRDP , and figure out how to "teach computers", well, I will die a happy guy.

Divers as a group are entranced by technology, and "invisible technology" in the form of EAN with yellow and green logos - that's pretty snappy. It gives instructors something else to teach, it lets you get another card, and in some very specialized cases, it allows you more expansive profiles. That, and the stories about how nitrox makes you frisky and not need the Viagra. Bingo. Gotta have it.

I don't know the exact numbers of divers using EAN at CoCoView, but it is very high. Of course, you'll see divers at other operations demanding it for their two a day dive schedule. Go figure.

Then again, Shell Oil is putting Nitrogen in their gasoline blends.

Shell Launches New NITROX Enriched Gasolines

FIIK

Don't worry about this- you're going to love it.

 

[LWB]

Hey guys,

This is my first post to this board. I was doing some research on Roatan and ran across this thread. I'm arriving at FIBR on April 1st for a week of what I hope will be fantastic diving. My diving resume is nothing fantastic, mostly quarries, lakes, and some diving around south FL and the Keys. I did finally make it to Belize last year. We had a fantastic trip down there at Ambergris Cay, but that's for another thread. Everybody tells me that Roatan is just as good, just different. Anybody care to explain? Also, I hear that the Fantasy Island boats will not go over to the Odyssey. That is a wreck I really want to dive on, but is it worth making alternate arrangements? My thing is wreck diving, but perhaps I am going to be in the wrong place. I'm going to try to hit as many as I can anyway.

The $10,000 question.....is there any reason to leave the resort? If so, what is there to see and do? How is the food? Buffet style? The free beer sounds like a winner!

What about sharks? Do I stand a chance of seeing any other then nurse sharks while doing the normal FIBR boat dives? Lastly, I know the boats leave three times a day, are they all single tank dives? Thus, you have to go out on each trip to get your three dives?

Thanks guys. I liked the Nitrox discussion. I'm new to the stuff with only 2 dives so far.