The value of PADI

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I guess "Advanced Open Water" sells better than "Open Water II," but it seems the latter would be more appropriate and might not lead people to over-estimate their abilities. The first thing our DM asked on site as we paired up was, "who here is advanced?" Nothing was mentioned about skill, confidence, or experience. It's a shame if that's not uncommon.

Which is exactly why NAUI used to have a sequence: OW I, OW II and Advanced OW. They had to move to the OW, AOW format to keep up with PADI in the chase to lowered expectations.

The old sequence was helpful but it was still only 19 dives. From my logbook, Rescue was only 3 openwater dives. I suspect that is because we did a bunch of rescue stuff in the other 3 programs.

So, at the end of Rescue, with a grand total of 22 dives, how much could I possibly know? Not a heck of a lot. But I did reach a point where I was comfortable with my ignorance; it was time to learn to dive by going diving.

Richard
 
I always point out to my students that the only way you can consider yourself an advanced diver is by diving ... and to think of the certification as a licence to make advanced dives.

This is the way it was explained to me, too.

When I got my OW card, my instructor explained that I could now get air and dive on my own, but I should limit my depth to 60 ft or less. He did not tell me this because he wanted to sell me the AOW course -- because we are friends and he wasn't selling me anything. He told me this because he said I would be better off to take some of the next steps with someone who has experience.

I was one of those who jumped right into AOW. Again, my instructor explained that this did not mean I was "advanced" but that I had now made a deep dive (with all the additional instruction that went with it), learned more about navigation, been on a night dive, learned about diving at altitude, and started learning about search and recovery. AOW was not the diploma. It was the introduction to higher learning.

A karate master once explained, "Most people think that the black belt is the end of their journey when, in fact, it is only the beginning."

This seems true of most endeavors. Someone made the comment about the medical school class. He was half right. One who graduates from medical school has the title of MD. But the medical graduate does NOT have the experience or the license to actually do much. The degree is the beginning, not the end of one's higher education.

I keep hearing that dive ops will not let divers go on certain dives unless they are "advanced." But where I have been, most do not actually ask to see a card. Instead, they ask how many dives you have done, how much time you have under water, or use some other way to measure experience.
 
So, what are people's thoughts on matters like this?

Remember... YOU ASKED...

I've been diving for about 2 and a half years now, with 32 dives under my belt. I really enjoy the sport and belong to an awesome club through my uni which has exposed me to a number of skilled, safe, and passionate scuba divers who've been fundamental to my learning how to dive. I've taken the PADI system to get where I am today, and am currently Advanced Open Water certified... Very glad about that, but at the same time I only really felt "advanced" after my 30th dive or so, and am only now comfortable going down to around 100ft in cold water, feeling in control of the situation and completely relaxed.

Good for you... but that's not a particularly high "dive density over time"... which could count for some of the extension on your 'comfort curve'... no value judgement here... it is what it is...

The last dive I went on was with my club, and with another diver who's also AOW. She told me she'd done about 20 dives and was totally fine with going down past 90ft plus, but seemed a bit amateur on the surface, forgetting to de-fog her mask, unsure of how to manage a buddy check, and struggling to get her fins on. Once beneath the surface she had a number of bouyancy issues, rarely looked back while leading, and had her secondary and guages dangling along during both of our dives. We agreed to turn back at half a tank and surface at 1/3; when we turned back (having risen to 30ft), she began to tear along as fast as she could, explaining later that she didn't like surface swims and would rather get in quicker... Naturally, this raised an eyebrow.

Ok... 32 dives... 20 dives... I've got several hundred... guess what... on any given day my potential for doing something completely bone headed is 50/50... it happens... that's what ya' have buddies for... to help protect you from yourself (... like two weekends ago... first ice dive I forgot to put my FINS on... now how the heck to you *forget* something like that??? ... but it happens... ya' feel like a moron when ya' do... but there ya' are...)

After, she told me she's taking the rescue diver course sometime this spring, which sounded fairly alarming. I felt unsafe and buddiless with her on a recreational shore dive in crystal conditions, and the thought of her as a "rescue diver" seems quite absurd. I'm sure she can pass the course just like she somehow did for AOW, but what does that really mean? She's clearly not an "advanced" open water diver at all, but a piece of plastic says she is, meaning people like myself happily buddy with her thinking they're with a safe and competent partner. I don't mean to come down hard on her as she was a nice person to be out with, but her skills as a diver were terribly lacking.

... one thing you've got to be a bit careful of is making judgements (on or for others) based on your own comfort levels... To be honest... you really haven't given us enough 'data points' to properly assess either your abilities/understanding of diving... your buddies abilities/understanding of diving... You paint a broad brush picture of a situation and ask us to make an assessment based on a generalized evaluation.

So... MY thought... dive your own dive. If you don't feel safe diving with this person... find a new buddy... but I'd leave the evaluation to the instructors who have a bit more experience in both evaluation and providing the necessary instruction to help somebody with shortcomings (... and we ALL have em'...) to get past them.

... trust me... you'll see all kinds of things out there that will make you scratch your head and wonder what in the heck the diver/instructor/agency/Dive OP/powers-that-be were thinking when they did what ever they did to get you to think that... be a help where you can... stay out of the way of the train if you can't...

... oh... and cert doesn't mean you know anything... it means you've completed the course of study, not unlike a university degree. To become a diver requires experience and seasoning... I'm still working on it myself... but as you dive you'll find that any "insta-buddy" is a certain 'risk factor' that you really can't evaluate based on papers... you may develop your own evaluation skills as you go along... but most often being prepared to 'self rescue' is a better alternative than putting total blind faith in a dive buddy you've never met before... Just practical advise...

:coffee:
 
AmMC10,
I think you're being a bit harsh. Sometimes with the best will in the world it can be difficult to get in the water. Last year quite a few of the dives I had planned were binned due to adverse weather conditions.

Looking at the post the OP made, well, I could have written that when I first started. The OP has given it some thought and posted on here and for me her post demonstrates some of the things that I have seen and experienced.

I dive in a club over here and one of the difficulties sometimes is getting enough people who actually want to dive. I got lucky and dive all year round -in other clubs, training takes place only in the winter subject to conditions and instructor availability and in the summer instructors are often out diving in conditions that may not be deemed suitable for the trainee club members.

To the OP,

Dive as much as you can in depths and conditions you feel comfortable in :) If someone in your club wants to dive see if you can do a shallow dive. In the shallows is where you generally learn about buoyancy control, trim and buddy skills as it's harder to do there than deep.

And forget about tank bangers - they really annoy a lot of divers :)
 
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I personally think the term Advanced Diver is VERY misleading. That one can be called advanced after having only 9 dives is totally wrong. IMHO, one is not an advanced diver unless one has had 100+ dives along with 100+ hours dive time in addition to rescue and specialty training. The advanced name in most agencies simply means training beyond basic open water level. On the other hand, there are many divers with only a basic open water cert who can put most instructors to shame. It's only a label, NOT a guarantee of performance or knowledge.
This is one of the reasons I've switched to CMAS. They avoid any misleading terms, and go with 1,2,3 or 4 star diver levels.
Take care,
George
 
Taking and passing classes does not make one a good diver. AOW should be renamed as honestly I think there is nothing wrong with a diver doing OW, and AOW back to back. However that does NOT make someone advanced. It does however provide a better framework for continuing to learn, and understanding what needs to be practiced. It also allows a new-ish diver to do a few dives with an instructor after OW.

One can read about driving a car, and practice in a parking lot, but experience counts, and that holds true in diving as well.

PADI, and other agencies provide a starting point, but that is all. One needs to dive to become proficient in the skills that all agencies teach. I don't blame PADI or the others. If they failed a lot of students, folks would likely stop taking the classes.

Too the OP, don't stop diving with this woman because she needs help. In fact I'd do just the opposite. Try and spend some time discussing the dive, the plan, and take the lead. Help her become a better diver if that is possible. Also tell her to slow down. Too many divers rely in movement to maintain buoyancy, and that is a problem.

Neither of your are very experienced, so I'd also look for some more experienced divers to buddy up with.

Above all be safe. Plan your dives, and dive your plan.
 
Which is exactly why NAUI used to have a sequence: OW I, OW II and Advanced OW. They had to move to the OW, AOW format to keep up with PADI in the chase to lowered expectations.

Wonder why NAUI feels like it has to keep up with PADI?
 
And here we go...this thread was bound to turn this direction eventually. I'm just surprised it took so long. sigh

But in an effort to avoid that turn, it's a matter of semantics. If one feels the cert levels are a "licence" of some sort (like the Texas gun permit law), then the titles "advanced", "rescue", etc titles...are misleading and dangerous. However, if one takes them in the context of "this person has mastered the fundamentals of certain skills and concepts" (whether they choose to employ them in the field or not is another matter entirely), then we accept them for what they are...labels that may or may not be misleading.
The solution is to evaluate the partner based upon observation, communication, and diving in less challenging conditions before progressing to more advanced ones. As for that lady taking rescue cert...Whether the OP admits it or not, he was depending upon her for possible rescue simply by going diving with her. Would it not be a good idea for her to have taken the rescue class in case he DID need her to provide assistance? It's my opinion (worthless, I know...) that additional training is almost never harmful. Anything that puts the lady in the situation of diving, learning new skills, and increasing her experience base would only serve to make her a better diver and improve her ability to make a better dive partner.
 
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