How much does dive count tell you?

[gcbryan]

This thread, while making for some interesting discussions, is more or less a strawman discussion. How much does a dive count tell you? Not much but it's something however most people I know don't ask someone how many dives they have and then hop into the water with them thinking that they now know what kind of diver they are.

You have a conversation with them. If this thread was about how much does a conversation with a diver tell you about that diver the answer would be ...a lot but not everything of course...some things you just have to find out underwater. However, if you can take care of yourself underwater it makes that conversation just a little less important (not a lot).

Getting back to dive count however, I had one dive buddy right out of her OW class that was an excellent diver to dive with from the start. I had another regular buddy who only had 30 dives but was calm and predictable underwater and made a great dive buddy.

Personally, I felt that somewhere around 200 dives was meaningful for me. I had experienced a lot way before that but around 200 dives I felt that my experience level was much different than at 100 dives.

I know some people who dive every week and have 200 or so dives and they still aren't great with navigation or with not silting up the bottom. For the most part however they are the ones who always dive with a group and don't really place themselves in situations where they will continue to learn. No excuse for the silting however!

 

[M.HARDY]

Up here in VANCOUVER CANADA..we have the Vancouver Aquariam...they invite divers to volunteer to help out with the Beluga Whales/ Dolphins ETC.. (cleaning the pool whatever) one pre- req is that you are AOW min 30 dives...12 cold water dives in the last 12 mos..i haven't participated yet but if I wanted too..I have to have proof of the logged dives...that's 1 reason why I would want my dive total verified

 

[NudeDiver]

Maybe, but it is more likely the diver with a brand new bag has either begun diving fairly recently or doesn't do alot of diving. In any event I never said it was the only way to determine experience, but it is one way.

It can maybe tell you something about the experience of the dive bag, but quite often can have nothing to do with the experience of the diver. I can tell you this much though - if you're willing to make a first judgment about someone's experience by the condition of their bag, they're probably better off not diving with you anyway.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My thoughts ...

See my responses below in red ...

0 to 50 dives is definitely a novice, and who needs to be watched every minute.

Depends on the diver. I've known a couple folks who were surprisingly good after 20-25 dives ... depends entirely on how much effort they put into learning.

100+ is a weaned reliable diver. Mostly because he or she has survived 100+ dives and is still around to talk about it.

I've known some folks with 100+ dives that I wouldn't trust to get out of a bathtub without injuring themselves. As Rachel pointed out, someone who's been diving for 20+ years and only done 100 dives probably hasn't progressed much from where they were on the day they completed OW class.

200+ and this person is probably really good at it.

Depends on the individual ... see above.

300+ is the same as 10,000+ because it does not change that much after awhile.

I completely disagree with that statement. I've only got about 2,200 dives, but can assure you that my knowledge and skill level are vastly superior to what it was at 300 dives. Generally speaking, as people progress in their diving, they seek out new ways to dive, more challenging conditions to dive in, and expand their knowledge base. If you don't, you'll get stuck in a rut and burn out ... then you'll stop diving and find something more stimulating to do.

Other factors to consider ...

D/M means someone has taken the initiative to become an expert recreational diver.

I know a bunch of DM's who are far from expert ... in fact, the requirements to become DM are so low that many new DM's are barely able to take care of themselves, much less anyone else.

ADV TRIMIX means someone who has completed technical training and is free to choose to go anywhere.

Depends on what other training they've taken. Advanced Trimix training focuses on depth and decompression. It won't get you inside a wreck or a cave, and it won't get you under the ice. You need other training for that.

TECH INSTRUCTOR is someone with extremely low tolerance. It's their way or the highway.

A good tech instructor recognizes that can be mutiple ways to approach the dive, and will give their students the advantages and disadvantages of each way. By the time you've reached tech training, you're good enough and intelligent enough to make use of the information. Tech diving is extremely circumstantial ... any given dive can put you into a unique situation that you may or may not have been exposed to in your training. Rigid thinkers don't make good tech divers or good tech instructors.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[funkcanna]

No chance in the world! A diver with 100 or more dives is fairly serious about diving. I would venture to guess that there is a huge dropout between 20 and 100 dives. Perhaps there is an even higher dropout between 4 and 20. But anybody can make 20 dives. It takes a little dedication to make 100 or more. The 100+ diver is bound to have learned more than the 20 diver. If nothing else, he's had 5 times the opportunity to make mistakes.

Now, somewhere over 1000 dives it probably becomes moot. But a DM with 60 dives doesn't impress me at all. An instructor with 100 dives doesn't cut it either. My view: minimum 500 dives for DM and 1000 for instructor. There should also be some diversity of conditions required but that would be complicated to administer. If you want to teach, you should have 'been there and done that' everywhere.

Richard

I completely disagree with this. I have witnessed people with over 100 dives who simply arent very good! To say that someone with 20 dives cannot possibly have the skill of someone with much more dives is extremely narrow minded. I might just be better than you! Someone might just be better than me!

As a fairly young manager at my company ive had to put up with this "time served = better" view my entire career but its just not true. Skill can be based on many factors, not just time served, or in this case number of dives.

 

[Walter]

300+ is the same as 10,000+ because it does not change that much after awhile.

I'm not close to 10,000 dives, but I'm well past 300 and I'm well aware there are big changes between 500 - 1000 dives. Those changes can happen instantly and they are mostly mental.

D/M means someone has taken the initiative to become an expert recreational diver.

I'm not impressed with most DMs, I certainly don't consider most to be experts.

Definitely. The only thing better than a D/M diving with you would be an instructor.

I'm not impressed with many instructors either.

Those with more experience help and pass on tips to those of less experience.

And those of us with more experience are perfectly happy learning from those with less experience.

Why not instead, celebrate dive numbers 103, 204, 299, 406, 705 and 2010?

Because we use a base ten numbering system and most folks like multiples of 100.

 

[wreckchick]

I wish I could take the 100 dive divers and put them in my head during a dive now that I have over 1000 just like I wish at 10 dive I could crawl inside a 100 dive and 1000 dive diver to figure out what's it's supposed to feel like so that I knew not necessarily how bad I was, but how far I had yet to go!

I'm considering a trip to the PNW and of course I'll want to dive while I'm there and I can tell you, don't follow me!! I'm out of my element. I'll be in a drysuit and although I have 20-30 drysuit dives under my belt, the last was over 5 years ago so I'm likely to look pretty bad.

How I'm most likely to judge a diver is not how they answer the questions I ask, but the questions they ask me! The way they talk about diving and the concerns they have about the dive are far more telling than dive count as a marker.

R

 

[vondo]

No chance in the world! A diver with 100 or more dives is fairly serious about diving. I would venture to guess that there is a huge dropout between 20 and 100 dives. Perhaps there is an even higher dropout between 4 and 20. But anybody can make 20 dives. It takes a little dedication to make 100 or more. The 100+ diver is bound to have learned more than the 20 diver. If nothing else, he's had 5 times the opportunity to make mistakes.

Oh how wrong you are. I've been out with someone who had 250 dives who was an atrocious diver and worse buddy. I'd much rather dive with someone who just finished their OW than that guy. I suspect the same will be true if he makes it to 500 or 1000 dives.

Generally, you are right, but specific cases don't always follow generalities.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

And those of us with more experience are perfectly happy learning from those with less experience.

You've got that right.

Not too many years back I hooked up with a woman who had recently started diving. And although her enthusiasm was downright infectious, her diving skills were pitiful. But I recognized something very special in her ... an intense desire to learn ... and so I started teaching her what I could.

After a few dives I told her that I thought in two years she'd be teaching me things about diving. I was wrong ... it took less than a year. Nowadays she knows more than me about quite a few things diving-related ... and holds certifications and experiences in certain types of diving that I don't. She's someone I rely on to review ... and sometimes correct ... the articles I write for the benefit of my students. Someone who's opinion I value and trust on almost anything to do with diving.

That person is TSandM ... and although she still has less overall experience than me, the teaching goes more the other way now. And I couldn't be happier about that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nereas]

See my responses below in red ...

0 to 50 dives is definitely a novice, and who needs to be watched every minute.

Depends on the diver. I've known a couple folks who were surprisingly good after 20-25 dives ... depends entirely on how much effort they put into learning.

100+ is a weaned reliable diver. Mostly because he or she has survived 100+ dives and is still around to talk about it.

I've known some folks with 100+ dives that I wouldn't trust to get out of a bathtub without injuring themselves. As Rachel pointed out, someone who's been diving for 20+ years and only done 100 dives probably hasn't progressed much from where they were on the day they completed OW class.

200+ and this person is probably really good at it.

Depends on the individual ... see above.

300+ is the same as 10,000+ because it does not change that much after awhile.

I completely disagree with that statement. I've only got about 2,200 dives, but can assure you that my knowledge and skill level are vastly superior to what it was at 300 dives. Generally speaking, as people progress in their diving, they seek out new ways to dive, more challenging conditions to dive in, and expand their knowledge base. If you don't, you'll get stuck in a rut and burn out ... then you'll stop diving and find something more stimulating to do.

Other factors to consider ...

D/M means someone has taken the initiative to become an expert recreational diver.

I know a bunch of DM's who are far from expert ... in fact, the requirements to become DM are so low that many new DM's are barely able to take care of themselves, much less anyone else.

ADV TRIMIX means someone who has completed technical training and is free to choose to go anywhere.

Depends on what other training they've taken. Advanced Trimix training focuses on depth and decompression. It won't get you inside a wreck or a cave, and it won't get you under the ice. You need other training for that.

TECH INSTRUCTOR is someone with extremely low tolerance. It's their way or the highway.

A good tech instructor recognizes that can be mutiple ways to approach the dive, and will give their students the advantages and disadvantages of each way. By the time you've reached tech training, you're good enough and intelligent enough to make use of the information. Tech diving is extremely circumstantial ... any given dive can put you into a unique situation that you may or may not have been exposed to in your training. Rigid thinkers don't make good tech divers or good tech instructors.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It actually sounds like you agree more than you disagree.