Pony vs. Doubles -- Philosophical Difference?

[RickHeil]

This subject has less to do with pony users versus doubles users and more to do with one philosophy versus any other philosophy.

I'm pretty sure you could do a search on this board of past threads/posts and find hundreds of posts from one group explaining why one shouldn't use ponies. I'm pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find any threads by any other group explaining why the use of doubles is a bad thing. You would be hard pressed to find a thread where anyone would even care.

There are legitimate posts I'm sure where someone used to use a pony but no longer does but that's usually because they started technical diving and now have doubles anyway and want to stay with one gear configuration.

All of the other arguments revolve around things that are convenient once you already have doubles...don't have to change out tanks, have use of all of the gas, etc. These are convenient aspects of having doubles but are not reasons to go to doubles in the first place. You go to doubles when you need to...deeper, longer dives. This is when the inconvenient aspect of doubles is now outweighed by the convenient aspects. Until then, to many people, the proper use of a pony does the same thing with less inconvenient aspects.

By slinging a pony bottle one doesn't become someone who now can't be part of a "team". You just have team member who happens to have an extra bottle under their arm to be ignored or used as one sees fit.

I think this summarizes it nicely.... when you NEED/WANT more air (deeper, longer) then the logical way to do this is via doubles. Once you start diving any configuration you tend to use it consistently. Once you dive deeper/longer with doubles you tend to stick with it thereafter... its less about philosophy and more practicality...

 

[DaleC]

It is just a normal progression and if you are not there yet, thats fine, just don't get the mistaken impression that you are going to be able to add any enlightenment to those who are already there.

Larry

Well, it was a nice discussion...

Too bad some people are so stuck on their own opinions that they can't even entertain the possibility of other points of view. One thing I enjoy about SB is the ability to exchange ideas and sometimes learn a thing or two.

From the tone above I'd say the title of this thread could be changed to the theological, not philosophical differences.

 

[Kern]

I think this summarizes it nicely.... when you NEED/WANT more air (deeper, longer) then the logical way to do this is via doubles. Once you start diving any configuration you tend to use it consistently. Once you dive deeper/longer with doubles you tend to stick with it thereafter... its less about philosophy and more practicality...

Or, you could decide that it's more practical to take what the situation requires & leave the rest behind.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Well, it was a nice discussion...

Too bad some people are so stuck on their own opinions that they can't even entertain the possibility of other points of view. One thing I enjoy about SB is the ability to exchange ideas and sometimes learn a thing or two.

From the tone above I'd say the title of this thread could be changed to the theological, not philosophical differences.

Sorry...there is nothing dogmatic about the argument at all. It really has been a natural progression from singles to singles and a pony to doubles because each in turn worked better as the depths got deeper and the dives more challenging. Going backwards on easier dives just does not makes sense given the many pros and minimal cons involved in staying with doubles rather than going back to a single and a pony.

Saying I am not enteraining another point of view is unfair given that those points of view used to be ones I not only entertained but actually held.

 

[greg98072]

In my short diving career I've met many people who dive with, and swear by, a pony bottle but who swear at diving with doubles -- likewise I've met many who dive doubles but "would never" dive a pony.

Is there a "philosophical difference" behind the use of a pony vs. the use of manifolded doubles? If so, what is the difference?

This thread, of course, has absolutely no practical value at all -- but I was just wondering.....

I dive with a pony and consider it a bailout only. If I was to dive doubles I think my reasoning would be that I wanted to use the extra gas.

As far as not wanting to dive with you because of your preferred configuration just means you are better off without them. Being from Woodinville is another matter though. That I would understand.

 

[DaleC]

Saying I am not enteraining another point of view is unfair

That's funny, considering the last line of your previous post. Don't throw stones if you want to live in a glass house.


Will every diver dive deep and/or technical profiles?

If the answer is no, can one conceive of recreational dives that can be done successfully with a single tank?

If the answer is yes, can those divers successfully use a pony as an emergency redundant air source?

If the answer is yes, there is no valid reason to switch to a double tank set up.


The problem is, having traveled a certain path and arrived at a certain configuration that works for you, you think that configuration is the only one that is valid. Isn't it possible that other divers may follow differing, yet just as valid, paths?

 

[Nemrod]

In my short diving career I've met many people who dive with, and swear by, a pony bottle but who swear at diving with doubles -- likewise I've met many who dive doubles but "would never" dive a pony.

Is there a "philosophical difference" behind the use of a pony vs. the use of manifolded doubles? If so, what is the difference?

This thread, of course, has absolutely no practical value at all -- but I was just wondering.....

Yes, doubles are heavy (on my back and spine) and overkill for most sport diving. A pony can be dispensed with if the following dive is not as demanding. When doubles are needed then a pony is not really an acceptable alternative. Like the Catholic concept of Limbo, the pony represents a middle ground and for some a second chance in a pinch.

N

 

[orange_diver]

The problem is, having traveled a certain path and arrived at a certain configuration that works for you, you think that configuration is the only one that is valid. Isn't it possible that other divers may follow differing, yet just as valid, paths?

for recreational NDL dives in warm water, with good viz, sure, knock yourself out. touching 130' on an AL80? happens all the time in many parts of the world. almost anything is "valid" in those easy conditions.

but not for the cold, deep, long, technical or cave dives DA is talking about. those are done in doubles, usually minimum 100cf each, with the diver often slinging a stage 80 or a deco 40, both, or even more bottles.

that's a philosophy that's been proven at the cost of quite a few lives.

 

[Kern]

for recreational NDL dives in warm water, with good viz, sure, knock yourself out. touching 130' on an AL80? happens all the time in many parts of the world. almost anything is "valid" in those easy conditions.

but not for the cold, deep, long, technical or cave dives DA is talking about. those are done in doubles, usually minimum 100cf each, with the diver often slinging a stage 80 or a deco 40, both, or even more bottles.

I doubt anyone has an argument with this orange. Except maybe the Al 80 at 40mts.

that's a philosophy that's been proven at the cost of quite a few lives.

Unfortunately there isn't a philosophy out there that is proof against death.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

That's funny, considering the last line of your previous post. Don't throw stones if you want to live in a glass house.

Will every diver dive deep and/or technical profiles?

If the answer is no, can one conceive of recreational dives that can be done successfully with a single tank?

If the answer is yes, can those divers successfully use a pony as an emergency redundant air source?

If the answer is yes, there is no valid reason to switch to a double tank set up.


The problem is, having traveled a certain path and arrived at a certain configuration that works for you, you think that configuration is the only one that is valid. Isn't it possible that other divers may follow differing, yet just as valid, paths?

The point I am trying to make is that I have traveled a path that has at one point in time or another had me using all of the options being discussed. At a minimum that gives me a very informed opionion about all of the options being discussed including the pros, cons and not always imediately obvious pitfalls of each.

From that perspective my statement stands - don't expect anyone who has followed that path and in the process tried everything you have mentioned to be enlighted by your perspective on ponies versus doubles.

In response to your questions:

1. Will every diver dive deep and/or technical profiles?

Not every diver will do deep or technical dives - and consequently will need neither doubles or a pony unless they are in a solo diving situation.

2. If the answer is no, can one conceive of recreational dives that can be done successfully with a single tank?

People do recreational dives on a single tank (without a pony even) every day. Can it be done safely and successfully? Absolutely. Whether it is a good idea is arguable. If a pony adds nothing to the safety of the dive, is it worth bringing along? If the diver using the pony decides it gives him the ability to cut into his reservre a little more, it could even be a bad thing if one day the diver does so and then discovers his pony is empty or nearly empty.

3. If the answer is yes, can those divers successfully use a pony as an emergency redundant air source?

It follows from number 2 that a pony can be used as an emergency redundant air supply - but we ned to add that it can only do so within its limitations and the diver has to both understand those limits and remain within them. Once those limits are exceeded (and I would suggest those limits are exceeded a. below 120-130 ft b. in any deco situation, or c. in any hard overhead environment) doubles or at least a large single with an H valve, are clearly in order. Relying on just a pony can be problematic in those situaions.

4. If the answer is yes, there is no valid reason to switch to a double tank set up.

Again, it depends entirely on the limitations of the pony and the conditions of the dive. At some point, a diver is far better served in doubles. My concern - based on experience - is how far will a diver go before they realize they are too far past the line where they should have switched to doubles. A diver using a pony has to know when enough is enough for that configuration as it is NOT equal to a set of doubles.

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There is also the other side of the equation where many divers prefer doubles for their buyoyancy and trim characteristics, so there is also an argument beyond gas supply and redundancy. That has a large part to play in why I choose to dive doubles in recreational situations where a single would do fine. When you add that to the efficiency and flexibility allowed by my double 100's and the benfits of packing, diving and maintaining the same basic configuration I use on every dive, there is no real benefit to going back to a single tank configuration - unless I am packing light and flying somewhere tropical where an aluminum plate and single tank wing are ideal.