Pony vs. Doubles -- Philosophical Difference?

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Nope, my experiences are the same as yours :D but apparently the OP did.

turns out it's the pony divers "beating up" on the doubles divers. ;)

To say tech divers are exclusionary isn't a criticism BTW. I even state that it is the safe way to dive technically. I also didn't say all tech divers do this or all rec divers do that. That many tech divers can "switch gears" is a given but it does provide one reason why some tech divers might be critical in rec situations.
I think that, when you've gone from an inclusive mindset to an exclusive mindset, it might be hard to go back to inclusive because your gut instinct will be trying to say its unsafe. The tech diver would have to be able to override that and say to him/herself that in a rec situation it's ok to be different. Some people can do it, some people can't.
Where is the fault in that logic?

never said i had a problem with this.

DA: I always try to be open minded and listen to the experience of other divers, especially those with more experience than me, but that doesn't preclude me from having an opinion and expressing it. On this issue I think I am right. The problem is that we tend to be debating similar but different things. (I think) you are stating that, as a result of your experience, you find doubles to be the better option and that ponies present some "issues". I am stating that, while for you that may be true, other divers may come to different conclusions based on their experiences and those conclusions are just as valid (and that there are some "issues" with doubles as well). I don't oppose your experience in itself (perfectly valid), just the negation of other peoples experience with the assumption that "they just haven't got it" yet.

While you certainly have a right to, I think it limits discussion when you revert to the "I have more experience than you so your viewpoint must be invalid" argument. Why not stick to the merits of the debate. Pulling the "experience" card out like that only serves to scare off newer divers on the board who won't participate for fear of a "smack down" by the old dogs. If your reasoning is sound you shouldn't have to go there.

well...here's the thing with diving. you can't learn it by either theory OR experience alone, you need to combine the two. to be blunt, you are only playing with one side of the equation, whereas DA has truckloads of both. i mean this as no offense, but i think it would be interesting if you revisited this thread after you have another 100 dives under your belt and then again 100 after that.

you may find that you then view a pony as an unnecessary crutch or an absolute essential. but at least you'd be able to talk the talk having walked the walked for a little bit.
 
turns out it's the pony divers "beating up" on the doubles divers. ;)

I believe he said it went both ways so ;) right back at ya.

Let's get it straight, one more time. I'm not arguing ponies over doubles. I'm just arguing that ponies can be used as emergency air sources as well.

Well...here's the thing with diving. you can't learn it by either theory OR experience alone, you need to combine the two. to be blunt, you are only playing with one side of the equation, whereas DA has truckloads of both. i mean this as no offense, but i think it would be interesting if you revisited this thread after you have another 100 dives under your belt and then again 100 after that.

you may find that you then view a pony as an unnecessary crutch or an absolute essential. but at least you'd be able to talk the talk having walked the walked for a little bit.

So now I can't participate in threads for 25 years??? Or do I just have to cow tow when someone who has, steps into the discussion?

I hope it doesn't take me 25 years to figure somethings out - I'll be 70 years old!

Here's another thing about diving. Some people can transpose other experiences and leapfrog over some basic premises. In my case I will apply my 20 years of mountaineering, 3 careers involving bio./mech. systems trouble shooting, response and repair and Oh, I'll add my 2 stints with SAR teams too. It's called lateral thinking. You probably think diving is unique but I have had the same discussions/experiences many times before. Different gear, different technique, same risk and polarized viewpoints. I've always soloed and always lived with the knowledge that a mistake will cost me my life so I try to be pretty up on my stuff and not overstep my boundaries.

On a different note. I know you said no offense but it is sad and meaningless to take that tact. It is a well known tactic to question someones credibility when losing an argument; politicians do it all the time and Rush Limbaugh has perfected it. That's my actual dive count and my actual name. If nothing else I try to keep it real, even on the net but you shouldn't judge a person by the info on the sidebar. I don't know who anyone else really is on the net or their real dive count/years of experience so I just have to go by the logic of their argument. Does it make sense? If it makes sense I accept it, if it doesn't I question it. Period.

I am amazed that "some" doubles divers can't seem to admit that there are several valid emergency air sources for rec diving. It is as though the acceptance of someone else's option will negate the value of their own.

So... anyone care to question the logic of my stance or sidestep things and question my credibility?
 
As a strictly warm open water, non-deco, recreational diver, I got a pony because I wanted an emergency backup supply of breathing gas - plain air - enough to get me to the surface from the typical depths I dive, which is about 30'-100'.

It's now my little yellow "buddy", and I dive as if I'm solo even when I'm with a group: valve on, necklaced pony reg. I want to dive pretty much exactly the same configuration every single dive, so I've used my pony on 90' reef dives and even on a 16' shore dive. It's just part of my regular setup, I've got all my weights adjusted for it, etc. It isn't part of any dive plan, it's there strictly for bailout - but it's always there, that's the point.

Like the spare tire in your car, you hope you never need it. But when you do, you really need it, and you need it full of air!

Doubles were not even a consideration for me. I already typically push deco on my second dive on my HP120's, what would the hassle and weight of doubles buy me? Also, the pony is in a little bag (not slung, bagged) and I can remove it to give to another diver, or even for myself if I happened to otherwise get my gear entangled and had to get out and extract it (or ascend to the surface). Can't do that with doubles. The buoyancy characteristics of the Luxfer 19 are almost ideal: I can keep it or give it away with barely a pound or two of buoyancy change.

Just the peace of mind having that pony there has lowered my SAC rate.

So, I'm not knocking doubles for the techies, but the pony makes better sense for divers like me.

>*< Fritz
 
In my husband's defense . . . He didn't start this to sing the praises of doubles over pony bottles. He started this because he couldn't figure out why he was being told that he couldn't dive doubles as a DM, when the instructors he was diving with were using pony bottles, and they were fine with that. Both he and the instructors were trying to create some redundancy for themselves, given that diving with OW students is essentially diving solo, but his approach was being regarded as unacceptable.

BTW, Gray, I hope I've never tried to "educate" you about pony bottles! I think we all have to come up with answers to questions in diving, and you and I have chosen different ones, is all. (Doesn't stop us from having fun diving together :) )

Hi Lynne! I wasn't referring to you or Peter with the "educating" comment. I have gotten some comments from others in person in the past. Nothing extreme but I was just pointing out that in my experience the comments are usually only from one group and are only on one side of this topic.

From reading Peter's later clarification I think his problem is a typical although unfortunate one and that is traditional dive shops are very "traditional" as in very adverse to change of any type. As Peter alludes to I'm guessing that they actually don't like his HOG setup rather than the fact that he is using doubles but who knows.

I've been around some dive shop owners and some instructors where the most negative feelings they have come out anytime the Hog setup is mentioned. It's almost like one is being disloyal or as if they feel that their livelihood is being attacked especially if they don't sell any HOG equipment.

I think he should dive as he wants however and just hope that they adjust and grow a little. It will probably be good for their business if they do accept a little more change.

I just couldn't resist commenting that this was another pony post by a DIR practioner since so many of the pony debates in the past have been started that way.

I actually feel for what Peter is having to go through when the end result is he is trying to help the shop by DM'ing.
 
I believe he said it went both ways so ;) right back at ya.

not really, read Lynne's post a few up from here.

So now I can't participate in threads for 25 years??? Or do I just have to cow tow when someone who has, steps into the discussion?

no but at some point it just becomes :deadhorse:

I hope it doesn't take me 25 years to figure somethings out - I'll be 70 years old!

it's not the goal it's the journey man! and i hope both of us are diving well into our 70s or later. :D

Here's another thing about diving. Some people can transpose other experiences and leapfrog over some basic premises. In my case I will apply my 20 years of mountaineering, 3 careers involving bio./mech. systems trouble shooting, response and repair and Oh, I'll add my 2 stints with SAR teams too. It's called lateral thinking. You probably think diving is unique but I have had the same discussions/experiences many times before. Different gear, different technique, same risk and polarized viewpoints. I've always soloed and always lived with the knowledge that a mistake will cost me my life so I try to be pretty up on my stuff and not overstep my boundaries.

maybe. maybe not. i haven't done those things, but expertise in one area does not necessarily translate to others. you still have to do the dives.

On a different note. I know you said no offense but it is sad and meaningless to take that tact. It is a well known tactic to question someones credibility when losing an argument; politicians do it all the time and Rush Limbaugh has perfected it. That's my actual dive count and my actual name. If nothing else I try to keep it real, even on the net but you shouldn't judge a person by the info on the sidebar. I don't know who anyone else really is on the net or their real dive count/years of experience so I just have to go by the logic of their argument. Does it make sense? If it makes sense I accept it, if it doesn't I question it. Period.

I am amazed that "some" doubles divers can't seem to admit that there are several valid emergency air sources for rec diving. It is as though the acceptance of someone else's option will negate the value of their own.

So... anyone care to question the logic of my stance or sidestep things and question my credibility?

you have it reversed. i'm not questioning YOUR credibility, I'm asking you to give DA credit where credit is due.

for the record, i stated previously i dont care how people rec dive. you wanna dive with or without a pony? i could care less, to each his own and i would never on this board or in person tell a diver any different.

in any case, i'm done posting here, safe diving to you!!

A.
 
I haven't read all the responses, so I apologize if this is redundant. There is a big philisophical difference between diving doubles and diving a single with a pony.

Think of each setup in it's three components:

1. gas supply for the dive
2. gas supply for emergency
3. safety control

Most successful divers have a gas plan. They know based on a predetermined profile, how much gas they will need to complete the dive surface to surface, while maintaining some sort of reserve for emergency contention. To take that even further, they may have considered what if my buddy needs gas at the worst possible time as well. I won't go into the different methods of planning other than that they exist and drive how much gas you would need for a given dive.

Most people would agree that dives shallower than 60 feet don't 'really' require added thought in regards to redundancy or extra safety gear. A CESA (controlled emergency swimming ascent) should be able to be performed from this depth in the event of equipment failure. When you start approaching 100 fsw, the amount of time, and therefore contingency time, gets small on an AL80. As you dip below 80 fsw and push the RDP, many divers start looking at larger singles to provide adequate bottom time. So how does this break down into doubles vs single with pony?

Some portion of the gas contained in a set of doubles is off limits. It is held in contingency reserve, and for the sake of argument, it is equal to 33% of total gas. That leaves 66% of the total content to be used for total runtime. That 33% is for accidental bottom time overruns, or in the worst case, getting a buddy back to the surface from the furthest point of the dive.

The same holds true for a single with pony. Typically, the pony is off limits, except in an emergency, so the single is used for runtime planning. The pony should be of sufficient volume to perform the same function as the 33% of the doubles volume, based on planning for the same dive.

Example:

Double AL80's give 160 cf of total gas, 106 cf of dive gas, and 53 cf of contingency gas.

A single HP100 mated with a 40 cf pony yields approximately 140 cf of total gas, 90 cf of dive gas, and 50 cf of contingency gas. (Notice, we don't breathe the single down to a vacuum unless there is a need)

These two setups give very similiar yields in planning a dive to the same depth. You can play with different tank sizes to get different compatible configurations. An AL40 used as a pony would normally be slung under the arm vs attached to the backgas. The thing to note here is that for the same dive, most single tank divers would probably not be taking enough contingency gas, as mounting AL20/30's to a large single is the facto standard. This is one reason why I am not a fan of this configuration, as most divers don't really do the calculation.

Now, with apples to apples on the dive plan that would require 90cf of gas (so either double 80's or a single 100 with 40 slung under the arm), we start to take a look at the safety controls. The doubles have two tanks, two tank valves, an isolation manifold, and two 1st stages. The single with pony has two already isolated (no manifold neccessary) tanks, two tank valves, and two 1st stages. The completely independant tanks do not require the isolation manifold that the doubles do.

In the doubles configuration, all gas is available to the diver without the need to switch regulators or turn on tank valves. The isolation valve and two tank valves are open prior to and during the dive. They manage one spg and know at any given time the status of supply.

In the single with poiny configuration, only the dive gas is available to the diver. If contingency gas is needed, the diver must open the pony valve (if not dived in the open position) and swap regulators. Not a big feat, but an extra step while possibly gagging for gas if the planned bottom gas is expired.

Failures or leaks in the doubles can be isolated to where 1/2 the remaining gas at time of failure can be saved. At the furthest point in the dive, which would be at 33% of gas consumed, a failure would leave 50% of the remaining gas, or 33% available for getting home. A failure or leak on a single would require a bailout to the pony, and all bottom gas would be lost. At the furthest point in the dive, which would be at 50% of the 90cf plan, a failure would leave the diver the pony to get home. This failure on this setup may leave the diver with just shy of adequate gas to get home.

Leaks are one thing, because leaking gas still leaves gas to be breathed until it is gone. On doubles, one would breath down the now isolated leaking supply, and then switch to the other regulator and tank. On a single, the diver could breath down the leaking backgas until empty, and then switch to the pony. This type of failure isn't as critical as a catastrophic equipment failure that leaves no gas in the supply cylinder. This is where the doubles have the advantage over the single with pony (see example in preceeding paragraph). To make diving a single more fault tolerant, one can add an H-valve, which mimicks the isolation valve on the doubles. An h-valve puts a second regulator on the single tank with the ability to isolate either regulator. A valve or regulator failure with an h-valve would allow you stop a catastophic gas loss via isolation. The one single tank failure that is not serviceable underwater is a blown o-ring on the tank neck. The diver is forced off the back gas and on to the pony when the gas is gone (usually very quickly).

So, the gear is kind of different, but kind of similiar. The safety controls can kind of be the same, but kind of different. The doubles allows a simpler setup for an apples to apples dive without the need for a large slung or mounted pony. The single/pony setup loses it's ability to mimick the double configuration when anything over double 80's or a single 100/40 pony is needed. The size of the single starts getting huge and unmaneable for most above a steel 108, because the size of the pony needed goes above 40 cf.

For shallow dives where an AL80 with small AL30 can be used appropriately, doubles would be too much. But at the depths we're talking here, a pony isn't really much more than a spare air. Proper gear maintenance and proper buddy protocol should alleviate the need for a pony at these depths. This would leave solo diving in the 60 to 100 fsw as the only instance where I would consider using an 80/30 combination. Beyond 100, I'd go to double 80's, and shallower than 60, I'd do a CESA and leave the extra gear at home.

I hope this wasn't too conveluded, and I hope it helps some. There is more detail behind these practices, and I'm not trying to train anyone here, so please take it as advisory based on my practice in the past before I went over to a reabreather.
 
not really, read Lynne's post a few up from here.
I didn't realize that Lynne was Peters wife. i was refering to the first post he made. I think it's unwarrented either way.

no but at some point it just becomes :deadhorse:

I agree totally. I've made my points, but like a fly, keep going back to the sh_t. Sick sick sick. I think I will disengage as well as the "debate" for me is going in circles and has dominated my otherwise general perusing of the rest of the board.

it's not the goal it's the journey man! and i hope both of us are diving well into our 70s or later. :D
Me too!

[QUOTE}you have it reversed. i'm not questioning YOUR credibility, I'm asking you to give DA credit where credit is due.[/QUOTE]

Of course I give him credit. The only thing I've taken issue with is the notion that... aw you know.

in any case, i'm done posting here, safe diving to you!!

and to you, Cheers :D

Fritzcat,

That's the exact reason I use a pony too, though I keep mine slung, valve on, regulator bungee'd to the pony.

Eric,

Thanks for the info, I'm going to have to chew on it for a while though. I'm the sometimes solo/ 60-100' guy which is why I am arguing that it is a valid option sometimes... if I'm still arguing.
 
Here's another option. hp80 and worthington 40.

An interesting combination. While the 40 makes sense when paired with the 80 in numbers, the depth at which the 80 is usable to doesn't really neccessitate the use of a pony, unless one is solo diving. While I have absolutely no problem with solo diving, I think this setup would be cleaner as just a simple set of double 80's.

There is a fine margin between the depth where a pony is not needed and doubles makes more sense than a pony. Planning would indicate this range to be about 60 to 100 fsw. For that little window, I'd just have a single handy and set of doubles handy. I'd dive the doubles if diving solo deeper than 60. Shallower than that, and it's a CESA in lieu of a buddy.
 
i mean this as no offense, but i think it would be interesting if you revisited this thread after you have another 100 dives under your belt and then again 100 after that.

you may find that you then view a pony as an unnecessary crutch or an absolute essential. but at least you'd be able to talk the talk having walked the walked for a little bit.
It is good advice. I find that I tend to be introspective about all things diving and have over the years frequently reassessed my position after gaining more experience, more training or both. Its a nice nice way to say I have a history of learning the hard way - or in other words, I have in the past expoused exactly the same positions and been equally "right" or "wrong" depending on the point of view.

I have noted that almost every diving season I tweak or adjust something as I continue to learn even after 25 years.

In 25 more years I will be 68 and will probably avoid 80 to 100 lb sets of doubles and move to a lighter configuration - probably a rebreather as they should have most of the current crop of bugs worked out by then. :D
 
In 25 more years I will be 68 and will probably avoid 80 to 100 lb sets of doubles and move to a lighter configuration - probably a rebreather as they should have most of the current crop of bugs worked out by then. :D

I don't know... I bet in 25 years error lights will still pop up on your dashboard for no good reason (like the "low tire pressure" light currently on in my truck, a truck that has no tire pressure gages, mind you), and CCRs will still have at least some of the same problems :P
 

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