Pony vs. Doubles -- Philosophical Difference?

[Blackwood]

Will every diver dive deep and/or technical profiles?

If the answer is no, can one conceive of recreational dives that can be done successfully with a single tank?

If the answer is yes, can those divers successfully use a pony as an emergency redundant air source?

If the answer is yes, there is no valid reason to switch to a double tank set up.

Your final "no valid reason" conclusion doesn't follow from the stated line of reasoning.

One could just as easily say:

Will every diver dive deep and/or technical profiles?

If the answer is no, can one conceive of recreational dives that can be done successfully with a single tank?

If the answer is yes, can those divers successfully use twinset an emergency redundant air source?

If the answer is yes, there is no valid reason to switch to a pony set up.

And one would be just as wrong.

There is also the other side of the equation where many divers prefer doubles for their buyoyancy and trim characteristics

Me, for example. I take doubles out to go putt around at 70 feet for an hour off the beach. I just like them better. Sure, walking down the stairs, across the beach (twice) and back up the stairs sucks, but during the dive itself I feel much more solid. I also have much easier access to my valves, and I don't have to re-configure my regset (I don't have a dedicated singles reg). Finally, and most importantly, it looks cool [/sarcasm].

...

wow, work must be really slow

 

[micklock]

Here's another option. hp80 and worthington 40.

 

[DaleC]

Your final "no valid reason" conclusion doesn't follow from the stated line of reasoning.

One could just as easily say:

Will every diver dive deep and/or technical profiles?

If the answer is no, can one conceive of recreational dives that can be done successfully with a single tank?

If the answer is yes, can those divers successfully use twinset an emergency redundant air source?

If the answer is yes, there is no valid reason to switch to a pony set up.

And one would be just as wrong.

No Marc, one would be just as right.

In recreational diving, if one can use a twinset successfully there is no reason to switch to a pony. If one can use a pony successfully there is no reason to switch to doubles. But, although we debate (good naturedly I hope), I think we both understand each other (at least I understand you).

I think it is odd that so many doubles users think that the purpose of this discussion is to convince them to revert to ponies. I don't recall ever making that assertion. Someone pointed out some problems with ponies and I pointed out some problems with doubles, both of which can easily be avoided by proper gas planning and common sense. My point, that seems to get missed, is to challenge doubles users who denegrate the use of other redundant air sources.

One could debate the pros and cons of doubles vs ponies forever (and I do enjoy the back and forth) but I am going to take another stab at the OP's original question.

A philosophical difference between doubles users and single/pony users is that of exclusion vs inclusion.

Most (not all) doubles users are, or have been, technical divers of some sort. The predominant philosophy espoused in that realm is that of exclusion. Teams tend to dive with known members of similar abilities (excluding others). They tend to dive with similar gear configurations (excluding others) and they tend to adopt similar techniques (excluding others). The nature of their diving dictates this exclusion mindset as it is the safe way to conduct their high risk activity.

On the other hand,

Most (not all) recreational divers adopt an inclusive philosophy.
On charter boats, in parking lots and at dive club events you see divers of different skill levels and gear configurations working together. Experienced divers buddy with new divers, unknown divers insta buddy, doubles divers buddy with independent twinset divers or large singles or single/pony divers etc... The nature of recreational diving allows for, and generates, a more inclusive philosophy as there is more than one safe way to conduct their activity.

As long as technical divers are technical diving their exclusion philosophy is warranted, as is the philosophy of inclusion for recreational divers. It is only when the two cross boundaries that friction occurs.

If a group of recreational divers showed up to a technical dive site with different skill sets, gear and techniques you could make an argument that they were unsafe.

If a group of technical divers showed up at a recreational dive site and began claiming that anyone who didn't dive like them was unsafe one could make an argument that they were elitest, anti social or rude. The tech diver can try to justify their stance as just being safer, whether rec or tech but really, if one is already diving safely, how much safer than safe does one need to be?

What a dangerous sport technical diving would be if everybody did their own thing.
and,
What a boring sport recreational diving would be if everybody had to do the same thing.

PS. Nice set up micklock. I've looked at your DIY for those brackets.

 

[Blackwood]

No Marc, one would be just as right.

Disagree. They'd both be wrong because there isn't enough information in that series of statements to determine what constitutes 'a valid reason'. While the undertone suggests that validity is predicated on the bear minimum required to provide redundancy, one could argue that doubles are more minimalistic than singles + a pony, and vice versa. Also, since for many of the dives in the box commonly labeled 'recreational' a pony is superfluous, it is therefore antithetical to minimalism. (For those dives, doubles would also be superfluous).

Anyway, there are any number of reasons to choose doubles over singles + pony that have nothing to do with either minimalism or redundancy. Among them are ease of transition from one dive to another, gear familiarity, flexibility and balance.

(good naturedly I hope)

No need to worry about that

I'm not trying to convince you to dive doubles, or to not use a pony. I don't think DA Aquamaster was either.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

A philosophical difference between doubles users and single/pony users is that of exclusion vs inclusion.

Most (not all) doubles users are, or have been, technical divers of some sort. The predominant philosophy espoused in that realm is that of exclusion. Teams tend to dive with known members of similar abilities (excluding others). They tend to dive with similar gear configurations (excluding others) and they tend to adopt similar techniques (excluding others). The nature of their diving dictates this exclusion mindset as it is the safe way to conduct their high risk activity.

On the other hand,

Most (not all) recreational divers adopt an inclusive philosophy.
On charter boats, in parking lots and at dive club events you see divers of different skill levels and gear configurations working together. Experienced divers buddy with new divers, unknown divers insta buddy, doubles divers buddy with independent twinset divers or large singles or single/pony divers etc... The nature of recreational diving allows for, and generates, a more inclusive philosophy as there is more than one safe way to conduct their activity.

As long as technical divers are technical diving their exclusion philosophy is warranted, as is the philosophy of inclusion for recreational divers. It is only when the two cross boundaries that friction occurs.

If a group of recreational divers showed up to a technical dive site with different skill sets, gear and techniques you could make an argument that they were unsafe.

If a group of technical divers showed up at a recreational dive site and began claiming that anyone who didn't dive like them was unsafe one could make an argument that they were elitest, anti social or rude. The tech diver can try to justify their stance as just being safer, whether rec or tech but really, if one is already diving safely, how much safer than safe does one need to be?

What a dangerous sport technical diving would be if everybody did their own thing.
and,
What a boring sport recreational diving would be if everybody had to do the same thing.

Well...you are making some pretty general assumptions. I am a technical diver, but I did not start that way and 2 of my last 3 buddies on dive boat trips been recreational divers and both of them were quite new divers (under 25 dives), both have normal new diver issues, and both had recreational configurations.

Yes...the rec and tech configurations managed to get along in perfect harmony.

So you are correct in the sense that when it comes to technical diving, I have pretty firm limits on buddy standards and equipment, but for recreational diving I am not inclined to be predjudiced against a diver with a conventional recreational configuration and I have a tendency to be willing to dive with new divers - some many experienced divers hesitate to do, rec or tech.

And, if a rec diver shows up in, for example, a cavern or cave without proper training or equipment, the odds are a technical diver will discourage them from diving - and quite possibly save his or her life in the process.

 

[orange_diver]

If a group of technical divers showed up at a recreational dive site and began claiming that anyone who didn't dive like them was unsafe one could make an argument that they were elitest, anti social or rude. The tech diver can try to justify their stance as just being safer, whether rec or tech but really, if one is already diving safely, how much safer than safe does one need to be?

have you ever witnessed this in person? it seems you have a "solution" looking for a problem. i do a fair amount of diving each year and have yet to encounter a situation like this outside of a few misanthropes on websites like this one...but they're usually good for some entertainment...

 

[gcbryan]

have you ever witnessed this in person? it seems you have a "solution" looking for a problem. i do a fair amount of diving each year and have yet to encounter a situation like this outside of a few misanthropes on websites like this one...but they're usually good for some entertainment...

That's not the way it happens. People are more polite in person and more direct on the internet but the same people you refer to on the internet do dive in the real world and therefore carry with them the same opinions they display on the internet.

The more polite way it works in the real world is to try to "educate" the pony user as to how with proper teammates it's unnecessary and to allow as to how they would use a pony too if they were to solo dive but they don't. They concede that a pony might be good if you don't have good teammates but that they do have good teammates and you should too.

I'm not saying this is a problem. People can discuss these things on the internet or in person if they so choose. The only reason it's being discussed at the moment is that someone with DIR Pratitioner under their avatar started yet another thread regarding pony bottles and therefore it was bound to draw these types of posts.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I can understand the need to hold and even express the concern.

You have to cut new divers some slack as it is very common for what they have heard or read to outsrtrip their actual experience. And to a new diver, an experienced diver in whatever configuration, can be intimidating when they run into one at a dive site. What gets heard in some cases is not what was actually said.

This thread is a good example. 25 years of progression and experience with a varierty of configurations and a decision with doubles for 95% of my diving based on the pros, cons, costs and benefits learned in the course of aquiring that experience was heard as being one of those doubles divers being dogmatic or even elitist.

Well...ok. Addmittedly there are some newer or more aggressive technical divers who do tend to wear their status on their sleeves and they can come off as being a little exclusive. On the other hand it is often an experienced diver in doubles who will be one of the few divers willing to dive with a comparatively new diver at the local quarry, lake or beach.

And, in some cases even the most inclusive doubles diver can get a little annoyed when they encounter an uncommon degree of resistance. I apologize for that.

 

[TSandM]

In my husband's defense . . . He didn't start this to sing the praises of doubles over pony bottles. He started this because he couldn't figure out why he was being told that he couldn't dive doubles as a DM, when the instructors he was diving with were using pony bottles, and they were fine with that. Both he and the instructors were trying to create some redundancy for themselves, given that diving with OW students is essentially diving solo, but his approach was being regarded as unacceptable.

BTW, Gray, I hope I've never tried to "educate" you about pony bottles! I think we all have to come up with answers to questions in diving, and you and I have chosen different ones, is all. (Doesn't stop us from having fun diving together )

 

[DaleC]

have you ever witnessed this in person? it seems you have a "solution" looking for a problem. i do a fair amount of diving each year and have yet to encounter a situation like this outside of a few misanthropes on websites like this one...but they're usually good for some entertainment...

Nope, my experiences are the same as yours but apparently the OP did. I was just trying to move the discussion back to the original question (philosophical differences) and away from the "which is better" debate. Does it really matter? Probably not, but as the OP stated, there is no real purpose to the thread other than discussion.

To say tech divers are exclusionary isn't a criticism BTW. I even state that it is the safe way to dive technically. I also didn't say all tech divers do this or all rec divers do that. That many tech divers can "switch gears" is a given but it does provide one reason why some tech divers might be critical in rec situations.
I think that, when you've gone from an inclusive mindset to an exclusive mindset, it might be hard to go back to inclusive because your gut instinct will be trying to say its unsafe. The tech diver would have to be able to override that and say to him/herself that in a rec situation it's ok to be different. Some people can do it, some people can't.
Where is the fault in that logic?

DA: I always try to be open minded and listen to the experience of other divers, especially those with more experience than me, but that doesn't preclude me from having an opinion and expressing it. On this issue I think I am right. The problem is that we tend to be debating similar but different things. (I think) you are stating that, as a result of your experience, you find doubles to be the better option and that ponies present some "issues". I am stating that, while for you that may be true, other divers may come to different conclusions based on their experiences and those conclusions are just as valid (and that there are some "issues" with doubles as well). I don't oppose your experience in itself (perfectly valid), just the negation of other peoples experience with the assumption that "they just haven't got it" yet.

While you certainly have a right to, I think it limits discussion when you revert to the "I have more experience than you so your viewpoint must be invalid" argument. Why not stick to the merits of the debate. Pulling the "experience" card out like that only serves to scare off newer divers on the board who won't participate for fear of a "smack down" by the old dogs. If your reasoning is sound you shouldn't have to go there.