Alpha "Dive" Flag

[Waterskier1]

Hey Waterskier,

Just remember, all this discussion and you mentioned you will be on inland lakes. I can assure you 99% of the boaters on the lake will have no clue as to what the apha flag is. Maybe half will know what a dive flag is, when they are not chugging beer or running you down on their jet skis. Be careful!

I hope you are not advocating abandoning compliance with the Rules (laws) just because some don't understand them.

We are trying to educate all the boaters. Every Safe Boating Course approved by the National Association of State Boating Law Administrator's (NASBLA) and the USCG have requirements and meaning of the Alpha flag. Unfortunately, not all states require one to take a course.

 

[vicdiver656]

You are on the right track, and I wish all boaters would do the same research you're doing. Pages 96-97 of the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Rules (NAV Rules) address Alpha "A" flag use for vessels "engaged in diving operations." Page 46 of the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary America's Boating Course (ABC) also addresses this issue.

Even though the one meter height requirement is somewhat difficult to interpret just by reading the rules, if you dig deeper into the NAV Rules manual, you will find in Annex I on pages 132-133 International and Inland Positioning and Technical Details of Lights and Shapes. Since shapes include flags, the general standard for determining the height requirement is "height above the hull." Height above the hull means the height above the upper-most continuous deck. Refer to the pictures on pages 96-97 to get an idea of what this looks like. On many small to mid-size vessels, the upper-most continuous deck will be equal to, or very close to the height of the gunwales (upper edges of the hull).

To make a long story short, your "A" flag should be one meter above your upper-most continuous deck; the flag itself does not have to measure one meter in height. I have not found any references to the actual size requirements of the "A" flag yet, but it's probably out there somewhere.

The red and white dive flag may be required by state or local law to mark divers' locations, but it is not the international code flag for vessels engaged in diving operations. Additionally, the red and white dive flag must be 12" x 15" according to page 46 of the ABC course manual.

An easy way to separate the meaning of the two flags is to remember the "A" flag is for the vessel, and the dive flag is for the diver. In other words, even if there is no boat involved and divers are doing shore dives, they should display the dive flag to mark their locations.

As a very important side note, all vessels 39.4 ft. and longer are required to have a current copy of the U.S. Coast Guard NAV Rules onboard. It should be kept within easy reach of the vessel operator at all times.

Hope this helps!

Spoiler

Thanks for the awesome information!!!!

 

[Waterskier1]

I would just buy. But you could make one, I do not know if you are not supposed to make your own.

That is why I started this thread....I could not find a source for one. I believe it is okay to make your own, the International Marine Code Flags are not copy or paten protected. Additionally, the Rule calls for a "replica" of the flag, which in and of itself indicates it is a copy, not the original. I suspect I will end up making my own.

 

[Daxter]

Rick, I look forward to hearing what the CG has to say but I bet it would be in line with what Realdiver7 wrote.

I dont think GrumpyOldGuy said to not fly the flag, I think he was just saying to watch out because most other boater dont know what the "pretty blue and white flag hanging on that guys boat" means.

We dove Carter lake last year and it was crazy, the entire west side of the lake is a no wake zone with one dive area in the middle of the zone. How many boats and jet skis do you think we saw flying around at top speed in the zone. We lucked out as one of our friends stoped their boat around where we were diving, both of us didnt even know until after the dive but the parked boat helped keep the idiots off of us. We would only dive there again with a boat for cover.

 

[Daxter]

I think the height is for the height of the flag otherwise there whould be places to buy a ridged flag of that size. I have looked for this flag as well and have come to think there is a reason every flag store on the internet dosent carry them.

Did you contact Colorado park service as well? We seam to get different rules from each ranger for any ? we ask.

 

[Waterskier1]

Tom,

I'm looking at diving Lake Powell mostly. Frank had asked if I'd be interested in taking my boat up to Jefferson next time, to get to some better areas to dive. Not too many boats there. Also, they are starting up a new dive club here, and they dive Turquoise, Twin Lakes, and Blue Mesa. Blue Mesa is pretty much boat diving. In the past, they rented pontoon boats (which are a lot better to dive off of than my ski boat) there.

I guess if the boat traffic got really bad, I could turn on my lights It also helps that most places I will be diving to start off with I have patrolled, and have a pretty good relationship with the LEs

 

[Waterskier1]

Did you contact Colorado park service as well? We seam to get different rules from each ranger for any ? we ask.

I considered that, but from past experience working with them, and inspecting boats here, all they know is that it was copied, word for word from the Nav Rules. That's why I decided I would go to the source.

It is a problem that the Rangers don't know more, and are not consistent. Part of the problem is that each state park has it's own rules. Some allow diving, some don't, some allow, waterskiing, some don't, some don't even allow body contact with the water (Dillon, Eleven Mile). Some don't even allow boating.

I'm going to be patrolling at Lake Powell over Memorial Weekend. I'll ask the District Ranger how they enforce the rule, but I suspect it won't be a definative answer. As long as an attempt is made to comply, most will let you get by. It's only when the lawyers get involved that "contributory negligence" becomes a factor that compliance to the word is examined.

 

[Waterskier1]

I think the height is for the height of the flag otherwise there whould be places to buy a ridged flag of that size. I have looked for this flag as well and have come to think there is a reason every flag store on the internet dosent carry them.

I never gave this a second thought, until I tried to buy one yesterday. I'm really wondering now since they are difficult to find (I have had a couple people send me links to large flags) and also that no one on here (maybe I put this in the wrong forum?) has ever used an Alpha Flag that big.

 

[Gary D.]

About the only people who can answer this question in its entirety and accurately is going to be someone in the know with the Coast Guard or a US Attorney. Just reading the code does not cut it because of to many subsections and case laws that go along with codes.

Then there is the issue of Navigable and Non Navigable waters which make a huge difference in the codes. There are places where Federal Codes are trumped by State Codes and Visa Versa.

So I think it would be best to try and find someone who actually KNOWS what is going on and don’t try and define the codes yourself. Then there is the issue of three attornies having three different opinions.

I got a 3' x 3' Dive and Alpha flags from West Marine several years ago.

Gary D.

 

[Daxter]

Turquise lake is why I have been looking for flags as there is limited shore access for fishermen, so to get to the other side of the lake would be peaceful diving. Last year we asked about Jefferson and they said that any size boat on the lake is OK but it is a no wake lake, had never heard that before.