DiveMaster/LDS conflict

[markfm]

If by "long hose", this is a long hose + bungied second, I'd not be surprised if an Instructor said "no" to someone using it as a DM or to a student at an Open Water level.

A DM (the original topic of this thread), at least in PADI, is supposed to be able to work with students on skills after the Instructor has demonstrated them. Also, particularly in air sharing, a DM often does the demo with the Instructor, since it's inherently a two-person activity. If you want to be a professional you follow the standards of the organization you are seeking to become a pro in, including the skills to be demonstrated -- the four-letter dive orgs are not DIR, and if you wish to be a pro in one of them, you follow their standards (including equipment configurations used -- standard primary and octo is what we learn on).

Likewise, I can't see someone acting as a DM "out in the wild" on charters (unless they're explicitly DIR charters) using a long hose configuration. You ought to be running as vanilla a recreational configuration as humanly possible, so that when a client has a whoops there's no issue with them grabbing a reg -- don't tell me you do S drills with all the clients on boats, I ain't gonna buy it.

Likewise, if it's a student in an OW class it is entirely appropriate for the Instructor to say "nope". Folks need to follow the fitouts used by the PADIs and others of the world. It's not the Instructor's job in an OW class to be teaching alternate configurations -- feel free to take DIR-F afterwards, but you do not dictate what you will be taught as an OW student.

I know PADI Instructors who are tech divers, normally off with their doubles and stage bottles. When it's time to work OW, however, they drop back to a standard configuration. What is appropriate or not does depend on what is being taught.

 

[Scubakevdm]

I don't see any problem in teaching or DMing in any configuration as long as it's open circuit. I mean, the instruction is to prepare them for real world diving, and the fact is that more and more back plates and long hoses are popping up on rec charters. What if they really go out of air near a long hose? Anyway, I don't see it as any different than teaching in an air 2. Either causes the primary to be donated.

 

[japan-diver]

A DM (the original topic of this thread), at least in PADI, is supposed to be able to work with students on skills after the Instructor has demonstrated them. Also, particularly in air sharing, a DM often does the demo with the Instructor, since it's inherently a two-person activity. If you want to be a professional you follow the standards of the organization you are seeking to become a pro in, including the skills to be demonstrated -- the four-letter dive orgs are not DIR, and if you wish to be a pro in one of them, you follow their standards (including equipment configurations used -- standard primary and octo is what we learn on).

Likewise, I can't see someone acting as a DM "out in the wild" on charters (unless they're explicitly DIR charters) using a long hose configuration. You ought to be running as vanilla a recreational configuration as humanly possible, so that when a client has a whoops there's no issue with them grabbing a reg -- don't tell me you do S drills with all the clients on boats, I ain't gonna buy it.

Likewise, if it's a student in an OW class it is entirely appropriate for the Instructor to say "nope". Folks need to follow the fitouts used by the PADIs and others of the world. It's not the Instructor's job in an OW class to be teaching alternate configurations -- feel free to take DIR-F afterwards, but you do not dictate what you will be taught as an OW student.

I know PADI Instructors who are tech divers, normally off with their doubles and stage bottles. When it's time to work OW, however, they drop back to a standard configuration. What is appropriate or not does depend on what is being taught.

This advice comes from ignorance- any diver worthy of being a DM should be able to demonstrate any skill to a student in a BP/W with long hose set-up and any instructor worth the title should be able to deal with their DM wearing that set-up. No where in NAUI/PADI 's or anyones standards is a long hose set-up violating standards. Also if more DM's used a long hose set-up they would find that dealing with the numerous out of air situations that we see to often with tourist divers would be alot easier. If a client is out of air he/she will take your primary anyway so you don't have to practice an s-drill with all your clients- although not a bad idea regardless of the set-up you use as that tourist diver hasn't shared air since his basic class probably (or his last diving vaction a year ago). Been diving and teaching in a long hose setup for a few years now and haven't had a student confused yet.

If you don't beleive that skills can be demonstrated with a long hose come on over and I will have a few of my DMs or instructors show you how to do it.

 

[Rainer]

If by "long hose", this is a long hose + bungied second, I'd not be surprised if an Instructor said "no" to someone using it as a DM or to a student at an Open Water level.

A DM (the original topic of this thread), at least in PADI, is supposed to be able to work with students on skills after the Instructor has demonstrated them. Also, particularly in air sharing, a DM often does the demo with the Instructor, since it's inherently a two-person activity. If you want to be a professional you follow the standards of the organization you are seeking to become a pro in, including the skills to be demonstrated -- the four-letter dive orgs are not DIR, and if you wish to be a pro in one of them, you follow their standards (including equipment configurations used -- standard primary and octo is what we learn on).

Likewise, I can't see someone acting as a DM "out in the wild" on charters (unless they're explicitly DIR charters) using a long hose configuration. You ought to be running as vanilla a recreational configuration as humanly possible, so that when a client has a whoops there's no issue with them grabbing a reg -- don't tell me you do S drills with all the clients on boats, I ain't gonna buy it.

Likewise, if it's a student in an OW class it is entirely appropriate for the Instructor to say "nope". Folks need to follow the fitouts used by the PADIs and others of the world. It's not the Instructor's job in an OW class to be teaching alternate configurations -- feel free to take DIR-F afterwards, but you do not dictate what you will be taught as an OW student.

I know PADI Instructors who are tech divers, normally off with their doubles and stage bottles. When it's time to work OW, however, they drop back to a standard configuration. What is appropriate or not does depend on what is being taught.

Your post reads as if you somehow believe PADI (or other recreational training agencies) does not allow instructors or DMs to teach using BP/Ws or long hoses / bungeed secondaries. There are no such standards. There is no recommended configuration. Granted, if a shop says to use a particular set up, well, do so or don't teach for them. But it's just wrong to suggest this has to do with what the agency standards dictates.

 

[pwl]

I wear rental gear in the pool. IN OW I wear my own gear and answer a lot of questions.....

R..

that seems the best way to go to me & is what i do, mainly 'cos i don't want the pool to eat my own gear

the only reason you might want to go with a jacket BC in the OW section is if you're demo'ing skills (eg BC remove/replace) - which would make no sense if you're in BP/W.

seems like a Good Thing that you're showing students stuff other than the default starter gear.

for the OP: go find another dive store/instructor: i'm sure there's one you can find with a better attitude. if there's no other store local to you, maybe they should look at expanding their range to include stuff you dive with ? (geez - what's the point in being a DM unless you can get cheap stuff off your LDS?)


edit: zoicks! necrothread. took me 17pages to work it out

 

[Jim Ernst]

I want to help out my instructor and the LDS this weekend with OW/AOW students, but my instructor has insisted I wear my jacket style BC with a 'normal' hose configuration.

He says he wants the students to see me in products they would be selling them. I own a Halcyon BP/Wing, which my LDS does not sell and I have a long/short hose configuration. They sell Dive Rite products, not Halcyon.

I have a REALLY BIG PROBLEM with this. From the dive shops perspective, I understand their point. Students observe DM's, AI's, and Instructors and it makes sense to wear stuff they sell. But more importantly, MY perspective is I love my new setup, want to dive it more, really don't want to touch my jacket BC because that does no good with me improving my new setup. I feel more comfortable in the wing, blah blah blah.

I can't argue their point, so I am just not going to help out. Part of being a DM is promoting the practices of your instructor, reinforcing them for the students, setting a good example, and I guess sales. I guess I would not make a very good DM for my LDS, because I will refuse to let anyone tell me what I should dive with for the sake of the store. It really is a shame because I think how I look and manuever in the water sets a good example for the students.

Ohh well, any comments from the gallery?

Jason

Hey Jep.

I went through this recently, I made my case by simply stating the students need to be taught and ready for the real world.

In the real world not everyone wears the same stuff and I am not going back to a jacket style BCD or a Wetsuit. Drysuit and a BP/W are my gear and I teach my students how to help there buddy and if it is me how to help me with my gear as well in an emergency!

 

[Colliam7]

It appears that three distinct issues are being teased out in the thread: 1. A shop policy of asking / requiring staff to dive with a plain vanilla configuration – jacket BC, yoke regulator, short hose, etc.; 2. A shop policy of asking / requiring that staff wear gear brands that the shop sells; and 3. A shop policy requiring staff to buy the gear they wear through the shop;

… there is a reason why some shops want their instructors (and DMs) in gear the shop sells. There's a considerable body of evidence that students want to emulate the "professionals" they see in their classes. When the instructors (and DMs) are wearing gear the store doesn't sell the odds are better than 50/50 that the students will seek out a store that sells what they saw in class. Given that most stores offer training as a means to bring new customers into the store, it's counter productive when the instructor is losing business for them. Scuba.

VERY good point. It is perfectly reasonable for a shop to ask, even require, this of staff. A DM in a class offered by a shop is functioning as shop staff, irrespective of the compensation.

A diving friend of mine had the same problem with his LDS. He has probably 500 dives and was "instructed" to buy Scubapro because that was what their shop sells. … I think it is MAJOR BS.

The amount of prior experience is probably not relevant. If he wants to staff a class for that particular shop, and they want all staff in ‘store brands’, that is their prerogative. It is also his prerogative to decline to work the class. I have no problem at all wearing (only) gear brands that the shop sells, when I am serving as part of the teaching staff. I have never been told that I MUST buy my gear through the shop (and would object to that if it occurred). Nonetheless, I do buy all my gear through them, for three reasons: 1. I want to support the shop, I want them to prosper. I have a mutually beneficial business relationship with them, and their continued success and existence is good for me; 2. As a staff member, the prices I pay are far more reasonable than any I could find elsewhere, or on-line; 3. There isn’t any gear that I absolutely need that is outside of a brand line they carry (they carry a lot of brands). The only non-shop-brand gear I have are my Jetfins and an Oxycheq wing, both of which bought used on eBay, to see if I liked them. (We don't carry SP, but the owner even has Jetfins and acknowledges his preference for them as well.)
When I assist with an OW class, I wear plain vanilla. In the confined water sessions, in particular, I want to be in exactly the same gear as the students. I am setting an example, and I know they are looking at my gear, and the instructor’s gear, and trying to be sure that their gear is set up the same way. That has nothing to do with brand. They are in an unfamiliar set of clothes, and want to be sure they buttoned their shirt correctly, tied their shoes the right way, etc. Wearing a ‘demo quality’ rig is part of the process of helping them. When I decided to pursue DM, I wanted a separate set of gear for pool use. The shop made available, at a very good price, used (rental) gear for the DMCs in my class. There was no requirement to buy, only an offer to supply if interested. Everybody wins. I got a BC and reg that I use in the pool, and OW if I choose, for teaching. The shop has a staff member wearing gear brands that they sell, a gear configuration that it comparable to what the students are using, and they rotate their rental inventory.
For AOW and specialty courses, I want the gear to be appropriate for the conditions, and the course. I DM’d an AOW class last weekend. But, I wore a tec rig – doubles, long hose, can light, drysuit, etc., both days, because of the water temperature, the requirement for enough air to do three dives each day, and a personal desire to avoid having to change tanks. I do not wear that rig with OW students. Notably, I even commented to the instructor after the first day that I realized I was ‘out of uniform’, as I forgot my snorkel. I wore it the second day, although it is a bit annoying, because that IS part of the expected PADI gear configuration.
Why make the gear you wear, when you are a DM or instructor for a course, a point of contention?

 

[markfm]

Your post reads as if you somehow believe PADI (or other recreational training agencies) does not allow instructors or DMs to teach using BP/Ws or long hoses / bungeed secondaries. There are no such standards. There is no recommended configuration. Granted, if a shop says to use a particular set up, well, do so or don't teach for them. But it's just wrong to suggest this has to do with what the agency standards dictates.

Apologies, I was not intending to add confusion -- I was trying to say "standard configuration" meaning the configuration used by the majority of recreational divers, which is not to say standards violation. I'm sure there are more divers using a long hose configuration over time, but overall I expect that an honest look at the numbers would should that they are a really tiny percent of rec divers. No, I don't have "the numbers", just that I haven't seen many long hose divers in a standard rec situation, and I do tend to check out what equipment people are diving with; either I live in a place, and travel to places, that just happen to have some anti long hose bias, else the long hose crowd is a fairly small population overall, with clusters who lean that way in certain locations.

Can someone demonstrate sharing air with a long hose? Sure. In OW, though, it should be expected that people are learning a baseline, a set of skills that are broken down into multiple smaller mechanical steps. It's a lowest common denominator approach. Using a long hose configuration adds a bit of chatter, noise as it were, in the context of OW; the setup and deployment of that hose just isn't what the majority of divers are using.

For my own use I actually shifted to a 5' hose on my safe second -- I originally had a Shadow+ (similar to an Air2, though it can be disconnected from the dump hose), but found a normal safe second with a longer hose gave me better options. When helping in OW pool sessions, I and the Instructors dive the shop regs -- vanilla all the way around -- while for actual dives I still have something that looks and acts like what most divers have, just that it's a bit longer.

End of the day, more divers is a good thing, as long as they learn to dive safely, have the basic skills.

 

[AndyA]

I want to help out my instructor and the LDS this weekend with OW/AOW students, but my instructor has insisted I wear my jacket style BC with a 'normal' hose configuration.

He says he wants the students to see me in products they would be selling them.

Jason
I am a DM, I own Oxycheq b/plate and wing and a Mares Dragon AT (Air trim). I will not wear either (my choice) with OW students. When the students watch me (I also own an Oceanic Excursion) maneuver, ascend, descend I have the same type of equipment and this helps the students remember and learn. If I had my Dragon AT I would not have my left hand raised and it might confuse a new confined water student.

Just my thoughts and what I prefer to do.
You are not wrong just different ways to be right
Andy

 

[SNorman]

This is beyond ridiculous. What I hate most about this attitude is the incredible arrogance on the part of the shops/instructors/agencies who think they get to decide what "confuses" students and what doesn't. What the *bleep* makes them think they can speak for grown-up people who want to learn diving????

From personal observation, I have seen what confuses students more than anything: Nebulous and inaccurate teaching that results when instructors who lack a thorough understanding of certain things confuse concepts like pressure, volume and amount (just as an example).

And just to follow up on this, since a couple other people have commented on it, this was for my AOW class, I went through OW at the same shop using their rental gear.

I really wanted to use my own regs in the AOW class but unfortunately, I had purchased them in long hose config so I had to purchase a new hose and switch everything back to standard octo configuration.