Mask on forehead=panic. Where did this mask signal originate?

[Wallowa]

I feel your pain! Part of my cave training is to successfully find the main line without a mask and then exit! I certainly didn't feel like flotsam, either. In fact, I found it not only fun, but exhilarating. I recently did the skills test to become a Raid instructor, and that included swimming 30 feet without a mask. I maintained perfect trim and buoyancy through the whole process. Again, it was fun and exhilarating. I guess that not everyone sees the value.

Guess the message is not getting across....masks off or on forehead or back of head does not necessarily mean a diver is panicked...that was stated in several post....I assume that was an affront to some who put the mask on backwards or routinely put the mask on their forehead....get over it, no evaluation of you was made....but to brush off the fact that many times panicked divers often try to "escape' by shedding gear including mask goes against actual experience of those who have observed and dealt with panicked divers in the water.....this is not theory...it happens... disregard and you may not recognize a diver needing assistance...

Flotsam....again check how thin skinned you are....the reference was to the fact that loss of a mask disables a diver....sure from perhaps 4,000BC divers have gone without masks underwater....you can swim around UW without a mask; and divers should have this as part of their open water training.....but in our world divers need masks to be fully functional and safe underwater....I have never carried a 'backup' mask but there is a reason divers in overhead environments carry a second mask....can you grope around UW without a mask? Sure. Do you have the same ability to deal with situations without a mask? Of course not. Flotsam....something at the surface that does not does submerge; a diver at the surface without a mask should also not submerge...get it?

Can't believe that these points are contested or denied. Not that I have all the answers to anything but experience has taught me to verify that a diver in the water shedding gear or without a mask may need my help.

 

[iliketopetsharks]

but in our world divers need masks to be fully functional and safe underwater....I have never carried a 'backup' mask

Isn't that a bit contradictious?

 

[Wallowa]

Isn't that a bit contradictious?

Not at all.....if I lose a mask at surface or underwater that ends my dive.....we trained our divers to be able to make mask off ascents and complete [octo and buddy breathing] out of air responses UW without masks.....but without a mask they ended the dive....like I stated I do not dive in overhead environments [anymore; found the rewards of vessel or cave diving not worth the risk for me].....this is my 70th year of diving and I have only once lost a mask; when I was dragging a fully panicked and inert 6' 3" diver through a 4 foot shore break and when were tumble on the berm he knocked off my mask which was lost in the rip current flow...has my mask been dislodged and replaced UW? Sure, but never lost.

I give up....dive without masks....put them on backwards.....put them on your forehead...carry extras if you need to....disregard someone in the water without a mask or with it on forehead...entirely your call....to each their own. Did not mean to stir the pot but only present experiences.

 

[tursiops]

fully panicked and inert

sounds contradictory

 

[USdiver1]

At the risk of becoming jetsam, I think we all know several individuals who could be considered flotsam, mask in place or not.

 

[Wallowa]

sounds contradictory

Try again.....a panicked person, including divers, can go "comatose" and inert or engage in compensatory flailing or a combination of both...if you have not seen it, some frightened/scared persons will "freeze up".....that is why learning to adjudge diver behavior is essential for evaluating how functional and safe they are.....

 

[Wallowa]

At the risk of becoming jetsam, I think we all know several individuals who could be considered flotsam, mask in place or not.

True that....

 

[The Chairman]

masks off or on forehead or back of head does not necessarily mean a diver is panicked

It seems the discussion is evolving as many discussions do! Try to keep up!

.again check how thin skinned you are

It seems you're the one taking umbrage at anyone disagreeing with you.

the reference was to the fact that loss of a mask disables a diver.

You say "disables", while a few of us say "challenges". Meh. I've taken blind divers into the ocean and two with macular degeneration. They even made a documentary about one of them, Gabe Spatero. Here's a pic (with a link) of me guiding him to the Christ of the Abyss statue in Pennecamp National Park, Key Largo, Fl. Yeah, that's me guiding him to the statue.

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Dive into the Legacy of Gabe Spataro with Diveheart’s New Documentary​

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Gabe is the reason the statue ended up in Key Largo, but he never got to dive it until much later in life. No, he can't see it, but he can feel it. Legally blind, he doesn't see much, but a mask helps his eyes to not hurt. This was a huge honor for me to assist him on all three of the dives he made to the statue.

but there is a reason divers in overhead environments carry a second mask

I'm full cave and never bring a second mask. I recently did the Grand Traverse at Peacock Springs. In at Orange Grove, swim almost a full mile, and then I exit a P1. I only have 54 years of diving so far, and I've lost my mask just once on a surf entry at Venice beach, Florida. Nope, I didn't dive that day as the goal was to search for fossil sharks teeth. However, with thousands of dives with thousands of other divers, I've yet to see a diver strip their mask off in panic. I did see a few panic when their mask was kicked off. Handing their mask to them calmed them right down.

 

[Wallowa]

It seems the discussion is evolving as many discussions do! Try to keep up!

It seems you're the one taking umbrage at anyone disagreeing with you.

You say "disables", while a few of us say "challenges". Meh. I've taken blind divers into the ocean and two with macular degeneration. They even made a documentary about one of them, Gabe Spatero. Here's a pic (with a link) of me guiding him to the Christ of the Abyss statue in Pennecamp National Park, Key Largo, Fl. Yeah, that's me guiding him to the statue.

View attachment 887582

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Dive into the Legacy of Gabe Spataro with Diveheart’s New Documentary​

​

Gabe is the reason the statue ended up in Key Largo, but he never got to dive it until much later in life. No, he can't see it, but he can feel it. Legally blind, he doesn't see much, but a mask helps his eyes to not hurt. This was a huge honor for me to assist him on all three of the dives he made to the statue.




I'm full cave and never bring a second mask. I recently did the Grand Traverse at Peacock Springs. In at Orange Grove, swim almost a full mile, and then I exit a P1. I only have 54 years of diving so far, and I've lost my mask just once on a surf entry at Venice beach, Florida. Nope, I didn't dive that day as the goal was to search for fossil sharks teeth. However, with thousands of dives with thousands of other divers, I've yet to see a diver strip their mask off in panic. I did see a few panic when their mask was kicked off. Handing their mask to them calmed them right down.

Hey...good points but I never said that a person with disabilities should or could not dive....but when a sighted person loses their mask the dive is over....context is important. Our experiences will of course differ; mine has shown me that a diver in distress can demonstrate many differing behaviors, one of which is to shed gear, including getting rid of the mask.....either on forehead or off the head....what concerns me but does not make me take umbrage is that is seems a lot of current divers seem to be unaware of what could indicate a fellow diver is in need of assistance or at least should be watched....not dunning them but perhaps from limited diving experience, or less than desired training they have either not thought through how accidents can be prevented, recognized or responded to....risk factors have not changed but not acknowledging, recognizing or being prepared to abate them seems much more prevalent....

Never had I been exposed to the concept of carrying a second dive mask on a dive....in the gear bag yes....but not in the water...that is until I became aware of what is now termed "Tech" diving....and agency requirements/recommendations that in overhead environments total redundancy is required, including a second mask...

Your work with disabled divers is very cool and commendable....only once did I instruct a disabled diver and he was unable to hear or speak.....he and his signer/buddy diver became solid, safe divers and provided lots of humous moments along the way for all of us..

Look, I am not telling anybody how to dive or what they should or should not do....just attempting to present my personal experiences so that if there is something of value in them they might make diving more fun and keep them safe....safety of my divers was always #1.

 

[tursiops]

when a sighted person loses their mask the dive is over

Perhaps for you but not necessariy for others. Your statement is much too general.

Never had I been exposed to the concept of carrying a second dive mask on a dive

Perhaps your raining was inadequate, or too many years ago. I do not understand your argument: if you lose your mask the dive is over, but refusal to carry a spare mask.

Look, I am not telling anybody how to dive or what they should or should not do....just attempting to present my personal experiences so that if there is something of value in them they might make diving more fun and keep them safe....safety of my divers was always #1.

You were trained a long time ago. Today there is an evolved understanding of what constitutes a safety hazard and how to deal with it. Things evolve, usually for the better. Some folks try and keep up, others wallow in the past.