Liability of Agencies for their instructors??

[Rickk]

Should dive certification agencies be held liable for the actions of their instructors?

A want to be diver starts looking around and sees ads that say something like " Learn to dive the <agency> way" They think that sounds great, I will go with <agency> to learn to dive. They go to the <agency> web site, find a dive shop that has a high star rating from the <agency> and say" That's for me, <agency> certified trainers and high star rating. What can go wrong?"

But as we all know, the <agency> is in the business of issuing certifications and selling learning packages, not in the business of monitoring the quality of their instructors. There are far too many instructors out there. One agency advertises that they have 160,000 certified dive professionals and issue 1,000,000 certifications a year. That is about 6 certifications per professional, no where near enough for an instructor to stay current on teaching methods and changing standards, let alone to provide sufficient revenue to cover <agency> fees, insurance etc. (They did not say if professional included DMs nor what levels of certifications were issued, a lot of difference between an OW or AOW certification and a no dive Nitrox certification in terms of instructor time and revenue.)


Personally I believe that agencies should have some responsibility for the quality of the instructors who issue the certifications on their behalf. I have seen far too many bad new divers, not bad because of inexperience but bad because they were just not taught correctly at the start.


This would be a major change for the agencies, fees would increase, as would the cost of instruction, the number of instructors would drop, and hopefully the quality of instruction would rise and instructors would be able to actually make a living instructing.

Please lets keep the discussion generic as to agency, Lets not bad mouth any specific agency as I believe they are all guilty of turning unsupervised new instructors loose on an unsuspecting public. Some examples will identify the agency to those in the know, but lets not name and shame.

But please feel free to name any agency that does do a good job of monitoring the quality of instruction done in their name and for which they collect fees.

 

[Omisson]

Should dive certification agencies be held liable for the actions of their instructors?

A want to be diver starts looking around and sees ads that say something like " Learn to dive the <agency> way" They think that sounds great, I will go with <agency> to learn to dive. They go to the <agency> web site, find a dive shop that has a high star rating from the <agency> and say" That's for me, <agency> certified trainers and high star rating. What can go wrong?"

But as we all know, the <agency> is in the business of issuing certifications and selling learning packages, not in the business of monitoring the quality of their instructors. There are far too many instructors out there. One agency advertises that they have 160,000 certified dive professionals and issue 1,000,000 certifications a year. That is about 6 certifications per professional, no where near enough for an instructor to stay current on teaching methods and changing standards, let alone to provide sufficient revenue to cover <agency> fees, insurance etc. (They did not say if professional included DMs nor what levels of certifications were issued, a lot of difference between an OW or AOW certification and a no dive Nitrox certification in terms of instructor time and revenue.)


Personally I believe that agencies should have some responsibility for the quality of the instructors who issue the certifications on their behalf. I have seen far too many bad new divers, not bad because of inexperience but bad because they were just not taught correctly at the start.


This would be a major change for the agencies, fees would increase, as would the cost of instruction, the number of instructors would drop, and hopefully the quality of instruction would rise and instructors would be able to actually make a living instructing.

Please lets keep the discussion generic as to agency, Lets not bad mouth any specific agency as I believe they are all guilty of turning unsupervised new instructors loose on an unsuspecting public. Some examples will identify the agency to those in the know, but lets not name and shame.

But please feel free to name any agency that does do a good job of monitoring the quality of instruction done in their name and for which they collect fees.

“Let’s not name agencies” is there any agency that can boast a hundred thousand pros and millions of certs other that PADI?

If you are gonna be a troll and agency bash - at least be honest about it.

That said, tell me you don’t understand either the law, or the dive industry at all without telling me you don’t:

“….that averages to 5-6 certifications per instructor… not enough to stay current….”

First the definition of a dive pro INCLUDES AIs and DMs and other non-certifying members (mermaid instructors, free dive instructors, snorkel leaders). So you are just plain wrong on your number calculations.

Second many pros don’t teach (many are retired, or non-teaching status) but want to keep the rating. This doesn’t meaningfully make your statement useful either. In fact - full-time active instructors probably account for most of the certs but part-time and avocational pros account for most of the pro registrations.

Third, when looking at legal liability the courts decide in large part by the degree of supervision accorded- (vicarious liability and respondent superior for example) - so if agencies got MORE involved in supervision of dive training than they would have MORE liability.

If I go to NYU Medical School - you don’t get to sue the medical school (absent extraordinary circumstances) for the medical malpractice I commit AFTER I am a licensed physician.

It always amazes me to see what the armchair experts have to say about both diving and the law….

 

[happy-diver]

If you can dive, you can be taught
If you can't then so shall it remain

 

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

Liability in which jurisdiction? US? Random country where you can pay a judge? Pariah countries like North Korea or Russia?

Liability for what?

Can you imagine the fees? It would collapse the industry, especially at the higher end of training. You wouldn’t be able to get a decent CCR or cave course.

Most diving is pretty safe and most divers don’t need the best course, they want to look at pretty fish, after a few days of training that is “OK”.

 

[Rickk]

If I go to NYU Medical School - you don’t get to sue the medical school (absent extraordinary circumstances) for the medical malpractice I commit AFTER I am a licensed physician.

Does NYU Med school take someone zero to hero in 6 months? Nope, diving does, another 6 months and the new diver can be a course director, able to certify someone as an instructor.

Does NYU make someone a doctor with perhaps only two professors teaching and evaluating them? Nope, nope but diving does.

Does NYU allow someone to certify someone else as a NYU doctor? Nope, but diving does.

Can someone practice medicine the day after graduating? Nope there is an internship. But not in diving.

Does a NYU degree by itself allow someone o practice medicine? Nope there is a separate entity that issues medical licenses. But diving does.


Does NYU advertise, get treated by an NYU doctor? Nope but diving does.

Are doctors ever removed from the profession for misconduct? Yep, know any instructors who lost their ratings? Pretty rare considering more instructors than doctors. Also getting kicked out of the medical profession applies in all jurisdictions. In diving someone can cross over to be a trainer for multiple agencies and only lose that agency certification.

I think your comparison is so full of holes to be completely discounted.

What the agencies do, is promote getting trained by their instructors (read buy their course material and pay their certification fees) , but do almost zero quality assurance that the instructors are actually doing the raining according to the agency approved standards.

I heard of one instructor who issued over 800 certs in a year. When called on it by the country manager of the agency, he claimed that he really worked hard. However he continued to issue certs when it was known that he was out of the country. Who did the training? Not sure what happened to the guy, I hope he lost his instructor rating.

I have heard of instructors sitting in the dive shop bar, drinking while a dive guide, not a DM, just a local rescue qualified guide, conducted the night dive for an AOW.

Yes agency oversight of instructors would increase their liability. You talk as if this is a bad thing, however I think it would be a good thing and vastly improve the quality of instruction, and the dive skills of the people gaining the certifications.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Should dive certification agencies be held liable for the actions of their instructors?

No.

Should High School drivers' education programs be held liable for drunk drivers who took their drivers ed course and kill someone?

Should medical schools be liable for physicians' malpractice?

 

[divingdayz]

It's very difficult for agencies for oversee insturctors. This is why we always tell prospective students that the 'agency' does not matter. The qualitiy of training is down to dive center and ultimately, with the individual instructor.

I saw one new OW diver today who completed his OW course last week in a different location. His complete dive time for his course was less than 80 min(OW1- 17 min, OW2- 17M, OW3- 23, OW4- 20min). Obviously, this is not very good and comes down to the insturctor. The agency was not one of the so-called 'big ones'.

 

[boulderjohn]

Some agencies, PADI included, survey a high percentage of the students when they are done with a course. The survey asks them specific things about the course in an attempt to see that standards in the course were met. If the survey indicates a problem, an investigation begins. When I was still a DM assisting classes, the instructor I was assisting was investigated because a student survey included one student who misremembered the course and said he had not used an ascent line when conducting the CESA.

Every quarter, the PADI professional journal lists the names of the professionals who were expelled for serious issues during that quarter.

 

[boulderjohn]

Does NYU Med school take someone zero to hero in 6 months?

Because being a medical doctor and teaching scuba are about the same level of difficulty.

 

[boulderjohn]

Agency liability became a serious problem in 2010 in the case of "Drifting Dan" Carlock. Dan was part of a die club that chartered a boat for a 3-tank dive. Despite the fact that the law requires that the boat captain be responsible for the passengers, the dive club took it upon themselves to call the roll after dives to make sure everyone was on board. Two club members (not paid) took the roll. Unfortunately, at the end of the first dive, they somehow missed Dan. They missed him on the next dive, too. As a result, Dan drifted for the day before another boat picked him up. He made a small fortune in the ensuing lawsuit.

PADI was sued on the theory that the two club members who failed in their volunteer roll-calling duties were certified as PADI divemasters. PADI did not have anything to do with scheduling the trip. They did not hire the DMs (no one did). They did not tell them what to do. But they lost, largely because of a disaster with their expert witness who was supposed to testify that the boat captain was required to take the roll did not testify because of a SNAFU.

Consequently, all liability waivers now specify that the professional in the activity is not a agent of whatever agency is involved. That has not stopped the practice of including the agency in the lawsuit whenever something goes wrong.

This becomes especially interesting when the activity is not instruction (like a guided dive or as in the Dan Carlock case) and the professional involved has certifications from more than one agency. Do you sue them all?