Zeagle Ranger vs ScubaPro Knighthawk

[jIM STEELE]

get a wing and ss plate you wont out grow it and you can configure it for the kind of diving you will be doing the SB and zeagle have been around since the 80s we have progressed since then.

---------- Post added February 21st, 2013 at 03:50 AM ----------

In diving its the difference is like flying a fighter jet or a cargo plane

---------- Post added February 21st, 2013 at 03:52 AM ----------

A quote from Loyd Austin who I respect

 

[Colliam7]

I am getting ready to start my open water vert training in a couple of weeks. . . . I was looking at different BCD's and was just wondering you alls opinions. My main goal is quality and performance. I would like to achieve closest to absolute bouencey and also have great mobility underwater. Packing for travel is not a concern for me. So I have tried on both the Zeagle Ranger and the Scubapro Knighthawk and I was wondering what you alls opinion on the vs of these two is? Both felt just fine on me fyi but that was out of water.

Both are excellent BCDs. And, you have noted that your experience so far is trying them on out of the water. Four comments:

1. Both BCDs are very popular, frequently purchased as the 'first' BCD by new OW divers. The quality and performance of both are superb. And, I doubt you would be unhappy with either one. A Zeagle Ranger was my first BCD, I still have the unit 12 years later, and recently started using it again from time to time (I switched to a backplate about 9 years ago). But, between the two you have mentioned, I would have to recommend the Nighthawk, as more appropriate for single cylinder diving, simply on the basis of lift compared to the Ranger (20 lbs vs 44 lbs).

2. Did you try on any other (Zeagle) BCDs. I think comparing the Nighthawk and the Ranger is a bit of an 'apples ad oranges' exercise. I think the Zeagle Stilletto, possibly the Scout, would be a closer match, in terms of lift. For that matter, an alternative recommendation might even be the Zeagle Express Tech.

3. One of the bigger challenges for any diver is deciding on a BCD out of the water. I still remember trying on the Ranger and noting how comfortable it felt - just like a fine, custom-tailored, suit jacket. The problem is, the 'feel' of a BCD on land has little to do with performance, underwater. All of the padding, on the Ranger for example, which made it feel so good in the shop, also contributed to a substantial weight obligation in the water, to offset the inherent positive buoyancy of the BCD itself.

4. You could stop your search right now, go with either BCD, and be reasonably well-served by either. You have given helpful information about where you are (not yet certified), where you are going (local recreational diving, more training, possibly wreck and cavern in the future), and what your focus is (back-inflation units, quality and performance). What is not as clear is why you tried these two in particular. As a simple, high performance back-inflation BCD, several posters have suggested you try a stainless steel backplate, and I would echo the suggestion. Only, don't just try one on in the shop - you really need to dive a backplate (and the other two BCDs for that matter) to gain an appreciation for its performance.

 

[beaverdivers]

Why? What sets it apart or makes it better than the Ranger or a BPW? I happen to have some little experience with all of them ...

The Scubapro KnightHawk is a very popular choice because it gives the diver freedom of movement with greater comfort. The KnightHawk is very robust ( 1000 denier/420 denier ) offering distinct Scubapro features such as the super cinch tank band, 4 dump valves, 4 ss D-rings, fully adjustable cummerbund, padded back pack, quick easy to release weight integration, quick release rotating shoulder buckles and weight integration back trim pockets.

They also required more weight than a Plate and Wing to get neutral due to their inherent buoyancy.

Incorrect, the Scubapro KnightHawk is slightly negatively buoyant.

For doff and don drills on the bottom way too floppy and too many things going every which way. If they removed most of the padding, pockets, and allowed all the d rings to be positioned where the diver wanted them and made a crotch strap standard they be much more effective and user friendly.

How many times during a dive do you doff & don your B.C.?

How many recreational divers want or need a crotch strap?

Don't recreational divers need to be able to ditch the bulk of their weight?

I believe a BPW is an excellent choice for tech. divers that are using doubles with a thick wetsuit.

I have tested a back plate & wing for recreational dives. It was OK. However, I feel a recreational B.C. is better for recreational diving.

There is a need for a comfortable B.C. if you are not wearing a thick wetsuit.

I have a hard time believing that the standard backpack with webbing that we dove with 40+ years ago is more comfortable than the new designs.

I truly believe that by the time a recreational diver needs a BPW, they will be ready to get the proper tool for the job of tech. diving.

 

[epointer]

The Scubapro KnightHawk is a very popular choice because it gives the diver freedom of movement with greater comfort. The KnightHawk is very robust ( 1000 denier/420 denier ) offering distinct Scubapro features such as the super cinch tank band, 4 dump valves, 4 ss D-rings, fully adjustable cummerbund, padded back pack, quick easy to release weight integration, quick release rotating shoulder buckles and weight integration back trim pockets.Incorrect, the Scubapro KnightHawk is slightly negatively buoyant. How many times during a dive do you doff & don your B.C.?

How many recreational divers want or need a crotch strap?

Don't recreational divers need to be able to ditch the bulk of their weight?

I believe a BPW is an excellent choice for tech. divers that are using doubles with a thick wetsuit.

I have tested a back plate & wing for recreational dives. It was OK. However, I feel a recreational B.C. is better for recreational diving.

There is a need for a comfortable B.C. if you are not wearing a thick wetsuit.

I have a hard time believing that the standard backpack with webbing that we dove with 40+ years ago is more comfortable than the new designs.

I truly believe that by the time a recreational diver needs a BPW, they will be ready to get the proper tool for the job of tech. diving.

What if the BP/W was ScubaPro, would you say different?

I went from a jacket BC to a Ranger then to a BP/W and I think the back plate is as comfortable as anything else I used, maybe even more so.

 

[beaverdivers]

What if the BP/W was ScubaPro, would you say different?

The BP/W that I tested was in fact a Scubapro X-Tek!

I believe they named it the X-Tek because it is a Tech B.C. made for tech diving.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

And that is why there is so much confusiion with new divers. A BPW is not a technical BC. It is a BC. Plain and simple. No different than any other except the features are different.

"How many times during a dive do you doff & don your B.C.?" As a SEI Instructor, with every class in the pool. Students will do it at least twice. I am also a skills junky. As are those I choose to dive with. We'll do gear exchanges just for fun.

"How many recreational divers want or need a crotch strap?" I'd say those who were stuck in a poorly fitting jacket that rides up around their head when they overinflate it on the surface due to being overweighted. Or those who have to really tighten a waist strap or cummerbund because their body shape doesn't tend to hold the BC in place when they are on the surface. You don't even know a crotch strap is there when you're under water. On the surface you do and that's where it makes a difference. I see newer divers quite often who would benefit from one properly installed and used. Especially when their BC is flopping around on them.

"Don't recreational divers need to be able to ditch the bulk of their weight?" NO they do not. If they are properly taught to weight themselves they should only need to ditch a small percentage of their weight. If they need to ditch the bulk of it they are overweighted. What sets recreational divers apart from tech divers when it comes to weighting? Nothing, both need to be properly weighted. If you're teaching your students to ditch the bulk of their weight someone is liable to misinterpret that and do it at depth and get hurt.

"I believe a BPW is an excellent choice for tech. divers that are using doubles with a thick wetsuit." What about recreational divers who don't find a BPW uncomfortable? Properly adjusted I dive mine in a t shirt and actually find it more comfortable than a jacket with a collar that rubs my neck, squeezes my front, and is just overly constraining. Why shouldn't recreational divers have the ability to configure the BC the way they want it. And size it to them. I find a BPW far more comfortable with single tanks and a thin suit as it fits better and doesn't flop around.

"I have tested a back plate & wing for recreational dives. It was OK. However, I feel a recreational B.C. is better for recreational diving." A BPW is a recreational BC. It is not a commercial harness. Let's dispel that tired old myth right now. What exactly makes what you term a recreational BC better? Pockets? Sorry, many are poorly designed and placed. Too big, no place to clip off items inside them, and not nearly as easy to access as pockets on the suit. No matter what kind of dives one is doing. Integrated weights? Nope, unless the student is taught to never put all their weights in them unless they are using a minimal amount to begin with. And to not dump both pouches at the same time. Good way to get hurt from an uncontolled ascent. And for those that want them there are integrated systems for BPW. Lots of d rings? No again. Not necessary. Look flashy but rarely used and like pockets often poorly placed.

"There is a need for a comfortable B.C. if you are not wearing a thick wetsuit." Another myth. A properly adjusted BPW is often more comfortable as it fits the way it's supposed to, does not flop around, and underwater is neutral or should be so there is no metal plate digging into your back and as already stated a t shirt works just fine between you and the plate. Or you can add a pad to the plate.

"I have a hard time believing that the standard backpack with webbing that we dove with 40+ years ago is more comfortable than the new designs." Maybe you should try one of today's models that has been set up by someone who knows what they are doing with one. How to weight it, adjust it, and give it a real try for ten or fifteen dives to really dial it in.

"I truly believe that by the time a recreational diver needs a BPW, they will be ready to get the proper tool for the job of tech. diving." Why wait? Buy once and save some money. Dive the rig that they are already used to.


If a BPW did not do the same job as another style, was more complicated, took more skill, or required special knowledge you might have a case for a BC that costs hundreds more. Fact is that's not the case. A BPW is a recreational BC completely and well suited for new divers and students. Including entry level OW students. More than few of us see the benefits of it.

As a shop you could seriously cut your gear maintenance costs by replacing 5 sized BC's in your pool/rental fleet with one BPW that you could adjust to fit the majority of your students in less than 5 minutes. They would not wear out as fast. Change the webbing every two years if you needed for 15 bucks and you'd have a BC that looks practically new. You'd never have to bring in the latest style and try to sell off your rental fleet. No more worrying about lost weight pockets. No more broken clips or snaps. And if something would get broken or a bladder punctured just replace the bladder. Not the whole BC. Think of it. You have 2 classes of 4. In one you have a small, 2 mediums, and a large. In the other 4 mediums. or maybe 4 larges, or 3 larges and an extra large. Or 2 smalls
To prep for this you'd conceivably need:
4 smalls
4 mediums
4 larges
4 XL's

16 BC's. Or 4 BPW set ups with the webbing managed. Seems like a no brainer cost wise.

 

[beaverdivers]

"How many recreational divers want or need a crotch strap?" I'd say those who were stuck in a poorly fitting jacket that rides up around their head when they overinflate it on the surface due to being overweighted. Or those who have to really tighten a waist strap or cummerbund because their body shape doesn't tend to hold the BC in place when they are on the surface. You don't even know a crotch strap is there when you're under water. On the surface you do and that's where it makes a difference. I see newer divers quite often who would benefit from one properly installed and used. Especially when their BC is flopping around on them.

The better solution is to properly fit the recreational diver in a recreational B.C.

"Don't recreational divers need to be able to ditch the bulk of their weight?" NO they do not. If they are properly taught to weight themselves they should only need to ditch a small percentage of their weight. If they need to ditch the bulk of it they are overweighted. What sets recreational divers apart from tech divers when it comes to weighting? Nothing, both need to be properly weighted. If you're teaching your students to ditch the bulk of their weight someone is liable to misinterpret that and do it at depth and get hurt.

Really, Are you sure about your answer?

"I believe a BPW is an excellent choice for tech. divers that are using doubles with a thick wetsuit." What about recreational divers who don't find a BPW uncomfortable? Properly adjusted I dive mine in a t shirt and actually find it more comfortable than a jacket with a collar that rubs my neck, squeezes my front, and is just overly constraining. Why shouldn't recreational divers have the ability to configure the BC the way they want it. And size it to them. I find a BPW far more comfortable with single tanks and a thin suit as it fits better and doesn't flop around.

I beleive most divers would find a BP/W very uncomfortable in a t-shirt. Do you have a bony back or are you well padded?

"I have tested a back plate & wing for recreational dives. It was OK. However, I feel a recreational B.C. is better for recreational diving." What exactly makes what you term a recreational BC better? Pockets? Sorry, many are poorly designed and placed. Too big, no place to clip off items inside them, and not nearly as easy to access as pockets on the suit. No matter what kind of dives one is doing. Integrated weights? Nope, unless the student is taught to never put all their weights in them unless they are using a minimal amount to begin with. And to not dump both pouches at the same time. Good way to get hurt from an uncontolled ascent. And for those that want them there are integrated systems for BPW. Lots of d rings? No again. Not necessary. Look flashy but rarely used and like pockets often poorly placed.

The Scubapro KnightHawk has very small pockets. They are easy to access. The D-ring are well placed.

I find that by the time I out fit a BP/W, then I essentially have a KnightHawk.

I agree with the idea of only dropping one weight pocket at a time. This reasoning is a perfect example why integrated weight have an advantage over a weight belt.

"There is a need for a comfortable B.C. if you are not wearing a thick wetsuit." A properly adjusted BPW is often more comfortable as it fits the way it's supposed to, does not flop around, and underwater is neutral or should be so there is no metal plate digging into your back and as already stated a t shirt works just fine between you and the plate. Or you can add a pad to the plate.

If your recreational B.C. fits, then it doesn't flop around.

How does a metal plate that weighs 6 to 8 lbs become neutral U/W?

It sounds that by adding a pad you are making a KnightHawk!

"I have a hard time believing that the standard backpack with webbing that we dove with 40+ years ago is more comfortable than the new designs." Maybe you should try one of today's models that has been set up by someone who knows what they are doing with one. How to weight it, adjust it, and give it a real try for ten or fifteen dives to really dial it in.

I did over 20 dives in my BP/W in Cozumel & Key Largo on recreational dives. I was at a Scubapro Platinum Dealer meeting with very experienced divers. I know how to weight it and adjust it.

The problem I see if you have a stainless steel plate that has 6 lbs of neg. buoyancy and you are diving the tropics in a thinner suit " How to you deal with the fact that you only need 4lbs of weight? "

"I truly believe that by the time a recreational diver needs a BPW, they will be ready to get the proper tool for the job of tech. diving." Why wait? Buy once and save some money. Dive the rig that they are already used to.

How can you use the same plate or wing to do both recreational tropical diving & real tech diving?

You can't!

You have to buy an aluminum plate, a stainless steel plate, a 30lb single wing, a single tank adapter, a 40lb double wing, doulble tank bands, integraged weight pocket, a back pad, a padded harness, shoulder pads, a webbed harness,a storage bag, counter weight pockets, a crotch stap, a backplate storage pack, shoulder pads, etc.

As a shop you could seriously cut your gear maintenance costs by replacing 5 sized BC's in your pool/rental fleet with one BPW that you could adjust to fit the majority of your students in less than 5 minutes.

I believe that I would be making a serious mistake by cutting costs on training my students!

 

[antattack]

First, back to the OP question.

I've tried the ScubaPro Knitehawk. It's a different kind of BC than the Zeagle ranger. The neoprene neck thing is going to be a problem on that BC. It's nice and soft, but it will wear out. I'm not a fan of using bungies on BCD bladders- it's a solution looking for a problem that needlessly complicates your rig. Those are just my preferences. It's a good BCD, built with all the features the market asked for. Note that it is a very different kind of BCD than the Zeagle Ranger.

The Ranger was my first BCD and I still have it. Others have come and gone, but my original Ranger is what I use whenever I divemaster a rescue course.

For everything else, I use my super comfortable, easy to pack up and travel with, flexible, trustworthy "Recreational" Halcyon wing. And I'm not a tech diver yet, but if I ever go that route, I'll have one less thing to get used to

I sure wish the shop I DM for would rent wings so I could wear my wing in the pool sessions. Setting up for DSD and OpenWater students would be way faster and simpler if we used wings. Thrift and economy does not necessarily mean cutting corners at the expense of students. Sometimes things get better. We just need to be open to change.

Blow bubbles!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The better solution is to properly fit the recreational diver in a recreational B.C.Really, Are you sure about your answer?I beleive most divers would find a BP/W very uncomfortable in a t-shirt. Do you have a bony back or are you well padded?The Scubapro KnightHawk has very small pockets. They are easy to access. The D-ring are well placed.

I find that by the time I out fit a BP/W, then I essentially have a KnightHawk.

I agree with the idea of only dropping one weight pocket at a time. This reasoning is a perfect example why integrated weight have an advantage over a weight belt. If your recreational B.C. fits, then it doesn't flop around.

How does a metal plate that weighs 6 to 8 lbs become neutral U/W?

It sounds that by adding a pad you are making a KnightHawk!

I did over 20 dives in my BP/W in Cozumel & Key Largo on recreational dives. I was at a Scubapro Platinum Dealer meeting with very experienced divers. I know how to weight it and adjust it.

The problem I see if you have a stainless steel plate that has 6 lbs of neg. buoyancy and you are diving the tropics in a thinner suit " How to you deal with the fact that you only need 4lbs of weight? "How can you use the same plate or wing to do both recreational tropical diving & real tech diving?

You can't!

You have to buy an aluminum plate, a stainless steel plate, a 30lb single wing, a single tank adapter, a 40lb double wing, doulble tank bands, integraged weight pocket, a back pad, a padded harness, shoulder pads, a webbed harness,a storage bag, counter weight pockets, a crotch stap, a backplate storage pack, shoulder pads, etc.I believe that I would be making a serious mistake by cutting costs on training my students!

Obviously you've bought into company line for setting up a BPW. You don't need all that. All you need is a steel or aluminum plate, a wing, a harness, and cam.bands. Padding is not at all necessary. Neither is a weight system. And an sta is not required on at least three BPW systems I know of. And you would not be cutting any training of your students. In fact they would likely be better trained. I see it's no use. You attended a SP seminar? With the same people that came up with the overpriced, overengineered, complicated x-tex line? No.wonder you're experience was less than optimal.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ScubaAn0n]

Thank you to all who answered and gave advice! I went ahead with the scubapro knighthawk. After some research it appears the knighthawk is the better deal. I do however agree that I should of gotten a BP/W but years down the road when I go tec I will then buy one. I also got the Mares Icon HD dive computer and now I need to find some good regs.