Yet again another post begging OW divers to stay out of the caves!

[j2s]

Look at it this way Tracy, 1) Can't fix stupid.... 2) If they die, it scares people and that leaves the caves alone for the rest of us, 'Mine, Mine, All Mine' ;O !!!!!.....How was Ginnie any way ??....I'm trying to get up there this weekend and may be check the flooding in P1 too..........

 

[ADeadlierSnake]

OK you stay off our reefs
Sorry just had to do that, I know it is not your intent. But your methods are hardly effective.
It sounds a bit presumptuous

Education and protection of dangerous areas I understand.
In my off roading days we lost a lot of good trails to people not respecting the areas
But really, posting a thread and lopping all open water divers together is just not the best way to get your point across

This argument is invalid, since cave divers have, in fact, been trained to reef dive. OW divers have not been trained to cave dive. That is literally all there is to it. And to give you a bit of perspective, I am not even a cave diver (yet). This is just common sense, although unfortunately some people believe they are invincible. I fully support these threads, because as long as people keep dying in caves, it is clear that the message still needs to be heard. The year that no one dies in a cave is the year that these threads can stop.

 

[MarineResearch]

Has anyone seen Ben? Still waiting for him to surface. He should have completed that Vortex to Dos Ojos traverse by now. Who says open water divers can't do some amazing cave diving.

 

[divingpyrate]

This argument is invalid, since cave divers have, in fact, been trained to reef dive. OW divers have not been trained to cave dive. That is literally all there is to it. And to give you a bit of perspective, I am not even a cave diver (yet). This is just common sense, although unfortunately some people believe they are invincible. I fully support these threads, because as long as people keep dying in caves, it is clear that the message still needs to be heard. The year that no one dies in a cave is the year that these threads can stop.

if it had been an argument your point would be well taken since it was not, your observation is off
proceed preaching

Sent from my A500 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Dive-aholic]

Look at it this way Tracy, 1) Can't fix stupid.... 2) If they die, it scares people and that leaves the caves alone for the rest of us, 'Mine, Mine, All Mine' ;O !!!!!

Not quite. If they die, it scares landowners and that leave less caves for the rest of us. In the past we've had cave access denied because of deaths.

 

[TracyN]

Look at it this way Tracy, 1) Can't fix stupid.... 2) If they die, it scares people and that leaves the caves alone for the rest of us, 'Mine, Mine, All Mine' ;O !!!!!.....How was Ginnie any way ??....I'm trying to get up there this weekend and may be check the flooding in P1 too..........

LoL!! Ginnie was pretty clear. To me the flow seemed a little less than it was the last time I was there but I've also heard that people think the flow is up. The mainline is easily swimmable. Forget about getting anywhere near Peacock. It's absolutely flooding although the whitewater rapids were cool to see at P3, lol

 

[Bob DBF]

"For the most part," you are right. However, in the recent threads there have been some very insistent voices saying the opposite. They look upon those giving the warnings as arrogant elitists who don't understand what wonderful divers they are already and why dive training is so very unnecessary for them.

Lets see, you can certify OW in two days, toss in AOW on the same vacation, fish identification, boat, rescue, altitude, nitrox, national geopgraphic, some more DM led dives, possibly with swim throughs or caverns or possibly into a cave, and this diver is now a Master Scuba Diver. They are told what wonderful divers they are already, and dive training is so very unnecessary for them because they are at the pinnacle themselves with minimal effort, why should cave diving be any different. Now you have two arrogant elitists discussing a topic, and you know that won't go well.

Is it my imagination or is the increase in cave diving death coinciding with the shorter OW classes which have trimmed out the water skills and shortened the classroom time.




Bob
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I may be arrogent, but I'm not an elitist or cave diver.

 

[DaleC]

I for one am glad these weekly "don't go cave diving" threads are popping up. As a result, the "don't go solo diving" threads have greatly diminished.

Now, where was that "don't tie rope around your head" thread...

View attachment 150300View attachment 150300View attachment 150300

 

[boulderjohn]

Lets see, you can certify OW in two days, toss in AOW on the same vacation, fish identification, boat, rescue, altitude, nitrox, national geopgraphic, some more DM led dives, possibly with swim throughs or caverns or possibly into a cave, and this diver is now a Master Scuba Diver. They are told what wonderful divers they are already, and dive training is so very unnecessary for them because they are at the pinnacle themselves with minimal effort, why should cave diving be any different. Now you have two arrogant elitists discussing a topic, and you know that won't go well.

Is it my imagination or is the increase in cave diving death coinciding with the shorter OW classes which have trimmed out the water skills and shortened the classroom time.




Bob
-----------------------------------------------
I may be arrogent, but I'm not an elitist or cave diver.

Yes, all much of this is very much your imagination.

Let's begin with supposed two day certification, which can only be done if you totally violate standards or if you don't count parts of the instructional process in the two day total. When you see people make that claim, they will usually only talk about part of the process. Back in the early days of instruction, students listened to lectures on the academic part of the course, took notes, etc. That was all considered part of the course, and when people talk about how long the course was, they include those lectures and note taking. Today students learn the same stuff through home study that includes a lot of multimedia and other good instructional tools. When people talk about those two day courses, they leave that time out, as if that learning never happens. This weekend I worked with students who had completed this home study before the class, and I went over those materials with them as required. I got through everything I did about as fast as I could with a class of 8 students and still be within standards. We met for about an hour and a half Thursday evening to set things up and do some preliminary instruction. On Saturday and Sunday we worked all day each day, with half the time in the pool and half the time in the classroom. They now have finished the academic and pool part of the instruction. They still have to complete four OW dives, and those cannot be done in one day. That's a "two day course," and I can't see how I could have done it faster and been legitimate.

Next, the standards have not changed all that much in the last couple of decades, despite what people claim about the steady decrease. What I was required to teach this weekend is almost the same as the standards were when I was certified in the 1990s. I was certified back then in only 3 days. That required staying up late at night to do the academic work. It also required the instructor to grossly violate standards. It was not until I became a professional myself that I looked back at my instruction and saw how very many things were absolutely skipped during that instruction.

Next, let's look at cave deaths in relation to instructional changes. The worst period for cave deaths was during the "good old days" of long classes when diving was just diving. With the staggering number of deaths casting a pall over that activity, Sheck Exley did a study to find out why people were dying in caves, and his results led to modern cave instruction. As more and more cave divers became trained, and as efforts to keep untrained divers out of caves, the number of deaths plummeted. Until extremely recently, the best estimates are that only 2-3 divers per year were perishing in caves.

All that has changed in the last two years, and I mean specifically 2011 and 2012, when the number of fatalities spiked. 2012 was particularly bad, and it would have been worse if Edd Sorenson himself had not rescued 4 people in 3 incidents in that one year. Even though I would guess that at least 95% of the people who go into caves are trained cave divers, over half of those deaths are people who do not have that training. Why the sudden spike? I have no idea. I don't see that anything has changed.

 

[SWAMPY459]

having been only at votex and morrison when i lived in that part of the world, pardon my ignorance in this question. if the caves are so dangerous that management has to prevent divers from carrying lights, why do they let OW divers in the place to begin with? haivng said that, if the divers assume the risk a bit of friendly disuasion goes a long way, but ultimately it is their decision to die or not. diving is privately regulated for competitive purposes, not publicly regulated for protective purposes. that said, the divers you describe do pose a threat to others, sounds like they were silt-out generators.

Like it or not, they cannot forbid lights in those caves.

Yes, they can kick you out and ban you from entering upon their property, but the cave is in the middle of the river. That is a navigable waterway and that private company has no say in what goes on there.

Again, if you go into their park and enter the river that way, yes. they can say what you do while on their land, but if you are in the water you are not bound by anythign they say and if you come in by boat you are on your own.

That is a good law. It prevents me from buying property upstream from you and damming up the river. It prevents Georgia from taking Florida's water. It prevents one landowner from stopping people from fishing on the river, or boating, or canoeing or swimming, or whatever.

Like it or not, Ginnie CANNOT prevent you from going into that cave with a light. They can prevent you from entering the water from THEIR PROPERTY with a light.