Wreck and Cave - similar or different?

[Akimbo]

This thread talked about it a bit:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/technical-diving-specialties/486045-wreck-penetrations.html

---------- Post added February 6th, 2015 at 08:42 AM ----------

it means I get to have the student in a blacked out mask to simulate a siltout episode, and then put some cave line around them or their gear to simulate being caught in line or cable.

I am a great believer in black water training for anyone who might encounter it.
Black Water

 

[Doppler]

This thread talked about it a bit:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/technical-diving-specialties/486045-wreck-penetrations.html

---------- Post added February 6th, 2015 at 08:42 AM ----------



I am a great believer if black water training for anyone who might encounter it.
Black Water

you and me both, mate!

 

[descent]

... I am a great believer if black water training for anyone who might encounter it.
Black Water.

Yes. I would expect it to be a transforming experience.

Genuine zero visibility dive training is challenging. Even in a modern setting, classes for untethered scuba would be nightmarish, uninsurable, and probably illegal.

For example, how could an instructor tell if a student was getting into trouble?

 

[ScubaInChicago]

Both cave and wreck have the potential to be very deadly places. I've been on a few wrecks that everything had gone so right for many dives that when sh!t hit the fan, things turned very serious very quick. On nature's time scale, wrecks are very temporary and always in a state of decay. Caves do also change with time, but normally not at such a fast pace. I personally feel safer in a cave.

In short, they are both excellent places to kill yourself without the proper amount of training and respect for the environment.

 

[RJP]

How similar or different are the skills, techniques and knowledge obtained in a cave course and a wreck course (w. penetration)? What is common and what is specific?

There are only three possible comparisons between any two things in this world. They can be

1.) The same.
2.) Different.
3.) The same, with differences.

Wrecks and caves are "the same, with differences."

---------- Post added February 6th, 2015 at 06:05 PM ----------

In short, they are both excellent places to kill yourself without the proper amount of training and respect for the environment.

So wreck diving and cave diving and driving a car are all the same.

 

[Akimbo]

…Genuine zero visibility dive training is challenging. Even in a modern setting, classes for untethered scuba would be nightmarish, uninsurable, and probably illegal.

For example, how could an instructor tell if a student was getting into trouble?

This is going to sound much more radical than it really is, but I believe that black water training is best done solo, However, water shallow enough to stand up in is adequate. This post explains my reasoning and there are a lot of interesting comments that follow:

Wreck Penetration, Black Water, Post #2

 

[descent]

This is going to sound much more radical than it really is, but I believe that black water training is best done solo, However, in water shallow enough to stand up in is adequate. ...

Yes, solo black water training is a fairly radical idea. We only just opened up the solo forum to the general public last week. And how old is the oldest recreational solo cert program?

My black water training did start shallow (20' - 35'), but not solo, in greenish oily harbor water and three foot viz at NAB Coronado. After a few mucking-around-on-the-bottom dives for familiarization, we moved to a row of rusting old hulks tied up along Tarawa Road for a hard overhead.

Our "cave penetration" style instruction was a fifteen minute Q&A period with a visitor from Panama City. Then we buddied up and started doing navigation exercises under the old landing craft, LSTs and mobile dry docks. After a minute or two of us wriggling between fouled hulls and the mucky bottom, the harbor turned an even more disgusting coffee tan, with churned up floating organic bits and actual garbage. It looked like a dredging operation, or a truck stop restroom after a chili cook off.

Everybody got an accelerated education in braille diving that week. No one got seriously hurt, or seriously stuck. Just incredibly filthy.

I did learn one new thing that I suspect veteran wreck/cave divers know a lot about. A few of those vessels were huge, had flat bottoms, and we sometimes got lost underneath them. I was introduced to an empty, uncomfortable mental state that is all you have left of a mind when every single one of your plans has failed and you are struggling to remember your training, but before panic hits. It's not really terror. More like a rising sensation of dread that prevents careful thinking. It feels kind of like drifting off of the highway onto the shoulder. It takes a conscious effort of will to push your thinking back to where it should be.

Throwing the new students right into the deep end is probably not the best instructional method for that kind of task. I would be curious to know what you and boulderjohn think about that. Having an instructor close by while the new student works through unfamiliar, unpleasant psychological states in shoulder-deep water is a slower and safer introduction to what I think is a crucial but neglected skill.

 

[Akimbo]

... Having an instructor close by while the new student works through unfamiliar, unpleasant psychological states in shoulder-deep water is a slower and safer introduction to what I think is a crucial but neglected skill.

Agreed. Shallow enough to stand up is the key to safely learning, just as is “feeling alone” is a key to acclimatizing IMHO. A buddy with their head above water watching your bubbles is “alone” as far as the poor diver in the mud is concerned. A paid instructor is probably overkill. It can take a long time for some people to “get there” while others are good-to-go after an hour or so. There’s nothing wrong with black tape on the mask or turning off lights off on a night as a warm-up exercise though.

True zero vis is critical to the acclimation process. That means visibility so bad that you only see a dull glow when putting your light flat against your face plate. Two feet of visibility doesn’t get you where you need to be for silt-out conditions… but is a good start for sure.

Being a Scuba diver in black water is much more psychologically challenging than a surface supplied commercial diver because they're not really alone or remotely lost. Their umbilical is the way out, they aren’t going to run low on gas, they can talk to the dive supervisor, and a standby diver is ready to splash in seconds and follow the umbilical straight to you. Granted, military and commercial divers get a LOT of time to acclimatize to black water, but they never feel totally alone and lost.

 

[lowviz]

... I was introduced to an empty, uncomfortable mental state that is all you have left of a mind when every single one of your plans has failed and you are struggling to remember your training, but before panic hits. It's not really terror. More like a rising sensation of dread that prevents careful thinking. It feels kind of like drifting off of the highway onto the shoulder. It takes a conscious effort of will to push your thinking back to where it should be. ...

I have never read, nor expect to read, a better explanation of this.

I have a Blackwater I card from ACUC to attest to it.

Poetry.

 

[Johanan]

Thank you, friends, for the very interesting and enriching posts! The simple purpose of my OP was to understand whether, let's say, a completed Advanced Wreck course would give me any significant advantages in cave training. Wrecks and wreck courses are available in my homeland but for Cave courses I have to travel to other countries. Your posts gave me a good picture. But there was more than that. Akimbo, the idea of Black water training was new to me and very interesting. I will try that as soon as possible. Thank you all for sharing your wisdom!