Worth paying local dive shop prices?

[3-Ring Octopus]

First off, the disclaimer...I've got a slightly biased opinion here as my significant other is an instructor at the LDS (one of the best in the nation...and certainly the best in a couple hundred miles around here from what I'm told and what I've seen in different parts of the country) in my area.

Okay...what I know about my LDS. They're great guys who try not to lead people astray (at least they haven't when I've been within earshot, and I'm in there an awful lot as of late...). They've been in the diving business for fifty years. They're willing to work with people in almost any way reasonably possible. (Want to demo fins/mask/boots/gloves/lights/bc's/regs? No problem...on just about any model. Buy something and break it? No problem..they'll fix it or replace it if it's within reason. Need air/service/five-star training/a dive vacation? They can do that too.) If you build a working relationship with them, they'll cut you slack all the time. (i.e. - I paid full price for my initial gear purchases...mask/fins/boots, etc. I recently went in looking for a new dry suit. There was an Oneill on the shelf with a retail of 800. One of the problems I had with the suit is that it didn't have hard boots attached. I talked with one of the salesmen, who is also the shops suit tech/repairman...he came back at me with a price of 650 for the suit INCLUDING making the modification of cutting off the "socks" and replacing them with BARE boots.)

The other thing I know about them? Take too much of your business elsewhere...and all of the niceties end. Buy your reg/bc online and don't expect to get it serviced at the shop. Same for that new drysuit. And those free airfills and tank rentals they've been giving you because you're a good customer? Forget about them...you'll be paying the full amount...if they even let you back in the door.

As far as my thoughts on all of this...I can completely understand it. Would you help someone with service (where the charge is usually minimal for the training/man hours required) when they made their big purchase elsewhere? Is the loss of a good working relationship...and more...a well of local diving knowledge worth a $35 savings to you on some dive lights? I'm not sure you can put a price on experience and knowledge, especially when it comes to life or death situations. ("Y'know doctor...I know you're the best cardiothoracic surgeon in the country...but I've decided to go with the intern because he's charging $35 less...")

But maybe that's just me....

Just my two cents...
-Austin

 

[ams511]

Austin, If you buy a car from a distant dealer to save significant cash would a local dealer refuse warranty service on it? NO, it would violate their dealer agreement. As I am sure your dive shop is violating theirs. Why are dive shops so special?

You many have gotten good deals just because your significant other works at the shop. When a newbie walks in the price may have been $950 not $650.

When I was first certified the shop would always give me the hard sell, even on minor items like a log book and defog. They had some great specials but when I tried to buy them everything was junk. If you said the item was out of your price range they would try to sell you financing. They were in it for the money and I am sure they were surprised when they had no repeat business. I know I never went back their again. I would stop at Diver's Supply when in Jax and buy everything there at better prices. No internet back in '91 when I was certified.

 

[3-Ring Octopus]

I know I'm not the only one who has gotten deals there. It's just like any other business...if you're a repeat customer, you get deals. You have to give to get...just as in any other business relationship.

You can't compare automobiles to diving. When buying a car, you're buying product only. I don't know many dealerships that teach you how to drive in addition to selling you the car. And when was the last time you paid $70/hour labor fees to have a reg serviced or suit repaired?

I'm sorry you had a bad shop in your area, ams. I can tell you from experience that they're not all like that, and that when you do find a good one, they're worth your patronage, even if that means a little bit more out of your pocketbook to keep them around.

Cheers,
Austin

 

[thelawgoddess]

Is the loss of a good working relationship...and more...a well of local diving knowledge worth a $35 savings to you on some dive lights? I'm not sure you can put a price on experience and knowledge, especially when it comes to life or death situations. ("Y'know doctor...I know you're the best cardiothoracic surgeon in the country...but I've decided to go with the intern because he's charging $35 less...")

if your surgeon was booked solid until next november, but you couldn't dive until you had your surgery (which was minor and considered routine), and there was a surgeon across town who was just as good (and maybe even cheaper) ... would you wait until november?

$35 less for the surgeon is a joke, right? $3,500 less maybe.

and what kind of dive lights are you talking about? a $70 light, or a $700 light?

and exactly what kind of "working relationship" and "local diving knowledge" are you referring to here? there are a lot of ways to get advice from experienced and knowledgable divers besides spending money at an LDS on gear that is marked up over MSRP. and i've gone into shops before where the advice i was given (or the answer i was offered to a relatively simple question) was far from helpful and certainly wasn't "life saving" to say the least.

i'm not saying there isn't some benefit to developing a relationship with an LDS, but i think your view - or at least your reasoning - is a bit jaded. the relationship with an LDS doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be "required" to be) all or nothing.

 

[ReefHound]

Is the loss of a good working relationship...and more...a well of local diving knowledge worth a $35 savings to you on some dive lights?

I'll turn the question around and ask it to the LDS? If they are willing to turn their back on me because I purchased some things online then they are clearly more interested in my credit card number than myself. That is not a "relationship" worth having. Any business that demands all of my business or none of it will get none of it.

The kind of vindictive attitude your LDS apparently displays is precisely why the LDS had gotten such a bad rep and divers have migrated online. Frankly, I'm amazed that LDS owners still think they can win business by bullying and intimidation tactics. So if your LDS refuses to service my online reg, what exactly do you think this accomplishes? Will it "teach me a lesson"? Will it make me want to buy my next reg from the LDS? (Assuming they let me back in the store.) More likely they'll just lose all my future business. And how much would that be? I'm 45, about 60 dives/yr, have a list of dive vacations a mile long, getting into tech, and have two daughters I hope will be future buddies. If the LDS were to get only 10% of my business it would be in the thousands of dollars.

Maybe I'll pick up some things at his going-out-of-business sale.

 

[redacted]

The other thing I know about them? Take too much of your business elsewhere...and all of the niceties end. Buy your reg/bc online and don't expect to get it serviced at the shop. Same for that new drysuit....
-Austin

Exactly the kind of shop that needs to go under and make room for a good shop that recognizes gear sales, training, and service all need to be income producers for the shop to be healthy and productive. Turning away what should be profitable service work to punish customers for shopping elsewhere is just stupid and should get its just rewards.

 

[3-Ring Octopus]

LawGoddess - Yes, the $35 surgeon line was a joke! But it illustrates the point, doesn't it? If you're willing to not spend an extra $35 on some dive lights (not $300 more...a simple $35...), why should a LDS go out of its way to help you? Should you patronize shops where the advice you're getting is shoddy? Or the knowledge of local conditions isn't worth having? Or where they mark up anything well beyond MSRP? Of course not! But a shop that bends over backwards for its divers, where they've been helping local divers in a challenging environment like ours here in the PNW for OVER 50 YEARS (!)...is one worth a few extra dollars here and there. And my exact words were..."take too much of your business...". I certainly don't mean to say that if you buy the odd mask or set of fins online that they're going to stop helping you out. But the big ticket items are how they make money...plain and simple. BC's, regs, comps, exposure suits (around here...)...I can understand where they're coming from with helping those out who buy them there vs. online just a little bit more.

Reefhound - Again...I never said "all or none"...the words were "take too much of your business..".

As to the point of not getting your reg serviced locally...wouldn't it teach you a lesson? Around here, not getting a reg serviced by them means either shipping it back to the manufacturer for service or driving 100 miles + to the next closest LDS for service (if they'll do it..). These guys have been in business, again, for over 50 years. They've driven every other upstart shop out of business. They cast a fairly wide net in the area (as to the programs they run, their outreach into all aspects of local diving...). And again...it's not one of the shops that marks things up hundreds of percent over MSRP.

I guess the general point I'm trying to make is...if we all keep trying to save an extra $10 here or $5 there, we're just shooting ourselves in the foot in the long run. For individuals who do that, they may be closing themselves away from a great source of knowledge. As a community if we continue to do it too much, we'll all be spending a few thousand more on compressors, lose a valuable way for local divers to get together in the first place, and be travelling much further to continue our dive educations.

Cheers,
Austin

 

[redacted]

As to the point of not getting your reg serviced locally...wouldn't it teach you a lesson?

It certainly taught me a lesson. My local shops didn't refuse to service my regs, they just did a poor job and/or overcharged for the service. So I spent some money about 10 years ago to be able to do it myself. Never a moments regret since then. Every time a shop chooses to dissatisfy a customer, they creat an opportunity for a competitor. There are extremely competent, reasonably priced, MO service providers who actually turn regs around faster than some local shops. The more folks within a 50 mile radius of Eugene, OR who learn about them and spread the word, the more a poorly run local business will suffer.

 

[3-Ring Octopus]

Awap..you're contradicting yourself!

In your post above you talk about being profitable in all three area of the dive business; gear, training, and SERVICE. Yet, now you're complaining that a shop "overcharged" you for service. So then please explain how to be profitable with service (which, btw, most shops couldn't possibly do!..same with training...those aren't where the money is made) yet aren't "overcharging" you, the poor, put-upon consumer?

Seriously...listen to what is being said! You expect your LDS to do everything, but still be the cheapest when they have such extraordinary overhead to deal with vs. online e-tailers? It isn't going to happen...it can't happen. So we either buck up and pay a bit more (notice I've said a bit..any shop that can't be at least a little competitive obviously isn't going to be around long) for the convenience of having B&M shops exist, or we let them go the way of the dinosaur and find other ways to provide ourselves with all the services that we take for granted from them.

I see this is my industry all the time...and it just makes me shake my head. I work with marine ornamentals (I've been keeping marine reef aquariums for well over a dozen years now...)...and the pressure brick and mortar shops face from online competitors is huge. But are those etailers the ones that are there when something goes wrong? Can they offer the same level of knowledge and advice I can? The answer to both those questions is "no". And it's the same in the scuba world...

You can't have your cake and eat it too...

Cheers,
Austin

 

[redacted]

Awap..you're contradicting yourself!

In your post above you talk about being profitable in all three area of the dive business; gear, training, and SERVICE. Yet, now you're complaining that a shop "overcharged" you for service. So then please explain how to be profitable with service (which, btw, most shops couldn't possibly do!..same with training...those aren't where the money is made) yet aren't "overcharging" you, the poor, put-upon consumer?

Seriously...listen to what is being said! You expect your LDS to do everything, but still be the cheapest when they have such extraordinary overhead to deal with vs. online e-tailers? It isn't going to happen...it can't happen. So we either buck up and pay a bit more (notice I've said a bit..any shop that can't be at least a little competitive obviously isn't going to be around long) for the convenience of having B&M shops exist, or we let them go the way of the dinosaur and find other ways to provide ourselves with all the services that we take for granted from them.

I see this is my industry all the time...and it just makes me shake my head. I work with marine ornamentals (I've been keeping marine reef aquariums for well over a dozen years now...)...and the pressure brick and mortar shops face from online competitors is huge. But are those etailers the ones that are there when something goes wrong? Can they offer the same level of knowledge and advice I can? The answer to both those questions is "no". And it's the same in the scuba world...

You can't have your cake and eat it too...

Cheers,
Austin

I don't see the contradiction. Scuba retailer A buys regulators for say $250 wholesale. He then marks them up to $500 and attempts to sell them. Scuba retailer B buys that same reg but offers it at retail for $400. Which retailer should expect to sell more regulators. Retailer A sells 2 of those regulators a months and retailer B sells 20 of them a month. Both are selling at a profit but A is having a hard time covering overhead and complaining about unloyal customers and B is looking for ways to satisfy more customerws and to further expand his business.

If a shop is losing money on training or service, or needs to charge much more than his competition to be profitable, it is probably time to look for a career in some other field.

I don't expect any shop to always be the cheapest. I just expect them to be competetive on the things I am shopping for. And I expect them to behave like a professional business. The owner of the LDS where I do business and I have something in common. We buy our cars at the same place. That is, the dealer who makes the best offer. Their vast knowledge (or BS) and the cup of coffee just doesn't compensate for too much of a price difference.