Work permits for non-Egyptian diving staff required for CDWS renewals

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It _IS_ expensive. Have a look at your salary...80 Euros (if u are lucky) for a 1pax OW. If u do it right, 5 days (the student has to study, getting the equipment on the 1st day etc etc....and for the student it's still holiday!! You just can't them push through the course!).
If you are lucky u will work 70% of the year. Renting a house is min 1500 LE/month plus food plus insurance 140 Euros/year (do any of the egyptian instructors have an insurance?), membership fees (PADI ca. 100 Euros, TDI 150$, Protec 80 Euros, IANTD and so on...).
Why do people think Europeans have the money and you can milk them?
I don't mind paying 3000 LE/year if I get paid a reasonable salary....but this way? No way.
BTW: Remember SSDM??? ROFL
What you mentioned is not a salary. It's the amount dive centers pay for a freelance instructor. Full time hired instructors make better income.

I'm an Egyptian instructor and I have insurance.

If you can't pay your affiliations, drop them!

No one thinks the Europeans could be "milked". However, do you think it's fair to come over here and work just like Egyptians without paying any extra?!!! In other words, could an Egyptian just go to Europe and work?!!! BTW, even if he's willing to pay ten times what you're complaining about, it's impossible.

If you can't find full time employment and good salary then what are you doing here? Spending good time in the sun I believe, which makes you a tourist not an employee/worker.
 
Well said Asser.

There shouldn't be any reason to believe diving services to modern standards should be any cheaper when offered by egyptians. You get what you pay for.

But on the matter of 'milking europeans', isn't it true that rates for hotel rooms, transport etc. are quite a bit lower for egyptians? I certainly feel milked every time I take a taxicab, and regularly encounter the attitude that as a tourist I can afford to pay double. Or triple for that matter. Only when wearing a week's suntan and a smart shirt and trousers can I pass for a local and haggle like one :D
 
But on the matter of 'milking europeans', isn't it true that rates for hotel rooms, transport etc. are quite a bit lower for egyptians? I certainly feel milked every time I take a taxicab, and regularly encounter the attitude that as a tourist I can afford to pay double. Or triple for that matter. Only when wearing a week's suntan and a smart shirt and trousers can I pass for a local and haggle like one :D
Actually rates for hotel rooms are sometimes cheaper for Europeans! Do you know that the online booking web sites do not accept bookings from Egyptians or Arabs? And if the booking is somehow accepted, the hotel does not respect the voucher, unless the guest is not an Egyptian or Arab?

Back in 2008 I had a group of different nationalities. It was a dive club from UAE so it had 5 different Arab nationalities (including Egyptians), in addition to divers from New Zealand and USA. They booked their accommodation in Sharm online through a couple of trusted web sites. ALL Arabs were charged 150 LE per person per night extra! The two foreign nationalities were not!

For transportation, yes it's true but it's a personal behavior not a governmental trend.
 
I have a point to say here, I live and work in Cairo, frequently go to sharm and hurghada and through work I travel to Europe frequently as well... The difference I see in prices when dealing with Europeans comes mainly when a service is done, restaurants and well respected super markets have fixed prices. As for hotels, I agree if you as a European appear on the front desk asking for a room it would probably be more expensive than an Egyptian, but the real case is that there are always deals with travel agencies where the price paid by me as an Egyptian looks 3-5x more (sometimes 10x) than what a foreigner would pay (by the way, residing foreigners are treated same as Egyptians in the hotel policies).
Now for the service part, if I take a taxi and have to pay 20 EGP for the ride, I would expect the driver to charge a foreigner for 100 EGP which is too different than the normal rate, but look it from the other side, it is still much cheaper if you think of it as paying 20 euros for the taxi ride which is an average taxi rate in Europe... I am not defending charging more for foreigners, I am just trying to say that a normal European tourist would not even notice that he is being charged more, in fact he will feel that it is still cheaper than what he used to have.. I get the opposite feeling when having to dine in some restaurant in Europe and have to pay 30-40 Euros for a meal (almost 300 EGP) which would cost me 50 EGP back home.. it makes me feel WOW TOO EXPENSIVE which in fact is not true.. it all comes due to many economical factors...

So cheer up guys, I believe there is no real discrimination based on nationality, it is just some rules and guidelines.. some are stupid, some are not but afterall they have to be followed :)
 
What Solly said is true.

One point to add is the Ministry of Tourism regulations, which state that if the room price for the Egyptian is x LE (Egyptian Pound), it should be x USD for the non-Egyptian. However, this holds true only for walk-in guests. For travel agency deals, it all depends on the hotel and the agency, and normally it is WAY cheaper than the Egyptian rate.
 
I am a brown skinned European passport holder and I was constantly frustrated at how the price of things in Dahab was higher than if I sent an Egyptian friend to buy the same thing.

Sorry, but my impression is definitely that the majority of Egyptians in Dahab (where I lived, not elsewhere in Egypt), will MILK foreigners if they can.

As for the example of working illegally in Egypt, excuse me, but it's been happening for more than 30 years, and very openly too, so it's not as though the government suddenly woke up and realised that there are so many foreigners working on a tourist visa. It was an unspoken agreement. From what I have heard from Egyptians, the industry would NOT be where it is without the input of the Europeans.
So, essentially, the government allowed the illegal working, whereas in European nations, the government DOESN'T allow illegal workers so easily.

Personally all this visa stuff is a moot point as I have left Dahab for the time being. The dead coral and the dead diving industry there just didn't cut it anymore.
 
Why shouldn't foreigers need a work permit, if they don't want to pay then hey more work for locals. However as we all know, in reallity, Foreigners in Egypt tend to run the best Dive Centers, what will happen to all the managers? Are they willing to get them?
 
Unfortunately I agree, Dahab has destroyed or is destroying itself, all I see is mad Divers drinking Vodka, diving, kicking as much coral as possible, watching locals fish outside the resteraunts and generally not giving two hoots about the place. I have been visiting and working in Dahab and Egypt as a foreigner for 12 years and to be honest I don't like it any more.
 
Enclosed is a document prepared by CDWS to help clarify the work permit issue:

================================
YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED: Work permits for foreign diving
professionals working in the Egyptian diving industry
Can foreign diving professionals in Egypt obtain a CDWS card without a
work permit?
No, they cannot obtain a CDWS card without a work permit. By law, all foreign
nationals working in Egypt must have a work permit. The Ministry of Labour
requested that CDWS comply with the law by making a work permit
compulsory for all holders of CDWS cards.
How do foreign diving professionals obtain a work permit?
Foreign dive professionals do not submit a request for a work permit. The
whole process has to be done by the company owning the diving business.
The process is complex and involves the following steps:
1. Obtaining approval from the Ministry of Labour for the number of work
permits required by the company. The law stipulates that the number of
work permits should not exceed of the ratio of one foreign worker per
every Egyptian employee registered in the company’s social insurance
records. However, CDWS managed to change this ratio within the
diving sector which means three work permits for every ten Egyptian
employees socially insured with the company. To get this approval, the
company must send a request to the CDWS for its supporting letter,
together with social insurance Form Number Two as proof of number of
socially insured Egyptian employees. For more information email
Sinai.membership@cdws.travel.
2. The company then has to submit the CDWS supporting letter to the
Ministry of Labour in Cairo and wait for approval from the Minister of
Labour. The Minister of Labour sees each approval request case by
case personally. This process usually takes between one week to one
month.
3. Once the company has obtained this approval specifying the number of
work permits, it can start working on individual procedures for each
staff member it wants to employ. The member operation should
fill in, sign and stamp the request form for a certificate of
experience request for each foreign worker.
This costs 200LE per individual experience certification. Involvement
of the CDWS in the process is no longer needed once these
certificates of experience have been obtained.
4. For each individual work permit, the centre must hold the experience
certification from CDWS together with all the other necessary
documents for each permit, including professional diving licence and
copy of passport. Work Permits for South Sinai employees should be
processed in the El Tur Labour Office, for Red Sea Governorates, this
should be done in the Hurghada Labour Office. The Cairo Investment
Authority labour Office processes applications for companies operating
in areas in Egypt under Law 8 1997.
Can you explain what CDWS has done to make it easier for foreign
diving professionals in Egypt to secure a work permit?
As well as increasing the ratio to three foreign workers for every ten socially
insured Egyptian employees at each company, the CDWS has made the
process easier with supporting letters. These letters strengthen the case for
Ministry of Labour approval.
There are also other areas where we have worked hard to make it as easy as
possible for diving professionals to work in Egypt. It used to be the case that
those requesting a work permit had to leave the country and come back with a
fresh visa for application, a process known as Estqdam. CDWS managed to
get a waiver on having to leave the country during the process.
Also, CDWS convinced the Minister of Labour that once a diving professional
has submitted Form Number Four and obtained a green receipt for this as
proof of work permit processing, the individual could legally obtain a CDWS
card.
What if there is a delay? Can foreign diving professionals work while
waiting for the work permit application process to be completed?
Yes, as long as they have sufficient proof of application. As previously
explained, diving professionals can obtain a CDWS card once they receive
the green receipt for Form Number Four. This proves they have begun the
process of obtaining their work permit. The green receipt can be obtained
before the results of the HIV test are available.
Usually employees of companies under Law 159 can obtain a green receipt
within one week of the work permit application. For companies under Law 8,
this may take around two weeks.
If you have any problems or questions regarding the green receipt needed for
your CDWS card, email the CDWS membership service
sinai.membership@cdws.travel.
What is the approximate cost of an individual work permit?
CDWS fees are set at 200LE per work permit, covering experience
certification and other administration costs. CDWS has no control or
involvement in the additional costs needed to obtain a work permit.
Approximate costs of each work permit are as follows:
*Approximately 1,520LE must be paid to the Labour office for the working visa
application, together with receipts and stamps.
*The HIV test which has to be completed by all those requesting a work
permit costs approximately 100LE.
*Tourist investment fee is approximately 100LE, covering security checks on
individuals.
*Companies operating under Law 8 pay an additional 100LE for tourist
investment charges.
*The six-month resident stamp costs approximately 75LE. For each additional
six months this costs approximately 70LE on top of the first fee.
*In addition to the approximate costs as outlined above (between 1,900 and
2,000LE), are the logistical costs, such as going back and forth to the labour
offices and any tips requested during the process from lawyers or other
people involved in the process.
Does it matter which diving training agency qualification you have when
the dive business you work for applies for your work permit?
Any diving training agency that is a European Underwater Federation member
or recognised by the World Scuba Training Council is accepted. So if you are
a qualified professional with these agencies, you qualify to work in diving with
regards to your qualification and experience.
Do you have to be a qualified instructor to obtain a work permit or can
you legally work as a dive guide?
Those recognised as a qualified professional dive guide are eligible for a work
permit. It must be noted, however, that dive professionals do not apply for the
work permit themselves. It is the business that owns the dive centre that
applies for the permits.
How does the work permit requirement affect freelance diving
professionals?
A CDWS member operation has to be the applicant for the freelancer. The
freelancer can still work for other dive centres with this card. Individuals
cannot apply for work permits; all applications must be done through a CDWS
member centre.
Can CDWS member centres obtain work permits for counter staff?
Yes. Currently the Ministry of Labour accepts work permit applications for
counter staff, however, it has claimed that it this will be stopped soon. CDWS
will of course try to work to make sure this doesn’t change and counter staff
still qualify for permits.
How does the work permit requirement affect underwater
videographers?
Videographers must have a CDWS card if they are working. This can be
obtained through a CDWS member business or through their own licensed
video companies.
If you have a work permit for other employment other than diving, but
area qualified diving professional can you obtain a CDWS card with this
permit?
No. Only those with a work permit for diving employment legally qualify for a
CDWS card.
================================
 
Enclosed is a document prepared by CDWS to help clarify the work permit issue:

================================
YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED:
The process is complex and involves the following steps:
1. Obtaining approval from the Ministry of Labour for the number of work
permits required by the company. The law stipulates that the number of
work permits should not exceed of the ratio of one foreign worker per
every Egyptian employee registered in the company’s social insurance
records. However, CDWS managed to change this ratio within the
diving sector which means three work permits for every ten Egyptian
employees socially insured with the company. To get this approval, the
company must send a request to the CDWS for its supporting letter,
together with social insurance Form Number Two as proof of number of
socially insured Egyptian employees.

Can you explain what CDWS has done to make it easier for foreign
diving professionals in Egypt to secure a work permit?
As well as increasing the ratio to three foreign workers for every ten socially
insured Egyptian employees at each company, the CDWS has made the
process easier with supporting letters. These letters strengthen the case for
Ministry of Labour approval.
There are also other areas where we have worked hard to make it as easy as
possible for diving professionals to work in Egypt. It used to be the case that
those requesting a work permit had to leave the country and come back with a
fresh visa for application, a process known as Estqdam. CDWS managed to
get a waiver on having to leave the country during the process.

================================



I'm sorry but what a pile of sh*te!!!! How is 3-10 ratio a greater ratio than 1-1???? Obviously from an Egyptian perspective it is, but for a non-Egyptian it isn't!!!!!

And as for the Estqdam....yes they might have changed it so that you do not have to leave the country, however your work permit just simply gets back-dated to the date of your last entry stamp, as mine did!!! I specifically asked this question at the start of my work permit process and got told no it was not an issue!!! I would have rather spent the money on taking a day trip to Jordan or Petra or somewhere else and experienced the culture within the surrounding area than line someone's pocket!!!!
 
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