Work permit situation and a ramble

[Red Sea Shadow]

Exactely!
The Italians could, but don´t want to - the Egyptians want but can´t...
See the difference?

Please answer one question: Do you think that at this time there are enough qualified egyptian DMs and instructors available to fill the jobs that are currently taken by foreigners? And I mean as qualified as those foreigners are! Same skilllevel, same level of knowledge and same level of experience. Do you believe Egyptians are currently in average as qualified as foreigners?

If your answer is "Yes" then there is no need for further discussion since we will never agree on anything, having completely different basic viewpoints.
If your answer is "No" then getting rid of foreigners will surely lead to a downward spiral in quality of service for the paying customers. With all resulting consequences...

The Egyptians can't because the European governments are not making their life easier. So why do you expect the Egyptians to make the Europeans' life easier? I hope you got the answer.

As for the resulting consequences, why do you bother? Let's assume that the Egyptians are going to ruin their bread and butter, why do you care?

At the end of the day, if the European governments didn't cooperate, the Egyptians won't cooperate either. Now every country should employ its own citizens, and the Italians won't have the luxury of choice anymore.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Sorry Asser, but there is a huge difference between the motivation of a non-european to want to enter Italy (or France or Germany or England or wherever) and the motivations of simple dive staff.

One is an attempt to get out of a system that beat them into the ground, to seek a land of new opportunity, in the hope they can feed their poor familes. They go to these places because they are desperate, but then a vast number of them sponge off the government, get free health treatment, subsidies, less taxes, whatever, because they either cannot afford it or it is not obtainable in their own country, and just risking deportation from their destination of choice means they will benefit.

We are here to do something we love in a place we love to do it. We are taking nothing from Egypt, and the money we earn is a small commission on services made to hundreds of thousands of foreign tourists who are bringing millions and millions of cash Euros to Egypt.

There is a huge difference in motivation, and I could blather on endlessly about racism, and for sure some instructors think they can get away without having a work permit, but I don't think there are many foreign staff here who really *want* to get away with it - and most would like to have a proper paper stuck into their passport. A person's eligibility to live in a certain country is mostly a matter of shuffling around some paperwork and stamping it in the appropriate colour.

It's not the legality that is the big issue, it's the social aspect. If I stood in the middle of Trafalgar Square in London with a big banner saying "foreigners go home", I'd probably be arrested just to make sure I wasn't beaten into the pavement, and then prosecuted anyway.

As I said before, it's great that people have a voice, but then the authorities need to decide what is sensible or criminal. That's kinda the way modern democracy works - elect some people to do the shouting for you, fight over many insignificant things, and then bow down before the might of the the American Dollar. Or possibly the Chinese Yuan in years to come, but "Dollar" rolls of the tongue more easily.

A thief is somebody who takes things from other people. I would suggest that most foreign dive staff want to *give* something to other people. And by that I mean diving, not after-hours hanky-panky.

I am still hopeful that it will all work out in the end, but I was on a Dahab trip yesterday and I can feel the difference there. It's not so obvious in Sharm, but Sharm is a completely different world. Most centres in Dahab (even big names) are small, whereas the big centres in Sharm cater to over 250 people per day in high season, are owned by hotels and the 10:1 employee ratio is much easier to achieve. This is not as easy in Dahab, but also I think the regulations (until now) have been less strictly applied there.

One day last year all CDWS cards were confiscated at the jetty in Na'ama Bay to match up with existing or expired work permits. Everything worked out fine - people without work permits were told to get them - not arrested and threatened with deportation. (as an aside, I am aware the recent numbers have been exaggerated - I only know of two actual arrests in Dahab)

I will fight my corner because I love my job here - and thankfully am fully legal, but if the reports in this forum come true, it will become more difficult for me to stay here, and that sucks. Like I say - it's not the rules, it's the attitude.

Once upon a time in America, there were bars and restaurants that displayed a sign saying: "no blacks"....

The bigger picture, please.

C.

I know motivation is different, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Every single day you hear about problems happening to your own people in foreign countries, although they're willing to take jobs no one else is. Yes they are illegal, and the foreign governments are not tolerating them, which is their (the foreign governments I mean) complete right. But what do you expect from the Egyptians in return? The Egyptians will not tolerate any illegal foreign worker, which is their complete right.

If you have your work permit, that's great, otherwise you're most welcome as a tourist. That's what you'll hear. It's not about racism, it's about rights.

And justice for all.

 

[macrobubble]

The Egyptians can't because the European governments are not making their life easier. So why do you expect the Egyptians to make the Europeans' life easier? I hope you got the answer.

Maybe I shouldn´t have been so short:
What I mean is that illegal egyptians in Italy took an jobs, that Italians didn´t want to do, whereas legal foreigners (in terms of legal stay) in Egypt take on jobs Egyptians can´t do.

As for the resulting consequences, why do you bother? Let's assume that the Egyptians are going to ruin their bread and butter, why do you care?

I care because they are ruining my bread and butter in the process! I care because when I see illogical and stupid shortsightedness I can´t ignore it. I care, because when I feel emotions are getting the upper hand over logic the endresult rarely is pleasent!

If you have your work permit, that's great, otherwise you're most welcome as a tourist. That's what you'll hear. It's not about racism, it's about rights.

And justice for all.

No, let´s be honest, it´s about envy and greed!
Those worthless DMs and instructors that can´t find a job otherwise want us out because they want the honeypot. If they were any good they would find jobs easily, because as I already said, any sensible owner of a divecenter would be more than happy to employ Egyptians if they were on the same level as foreigners to avoid all the bureaucratic hassle. You can argue all day about justice, national pride, legal rights, consequences for the industry and so on. When it comes down to it, it´s only about money! They just want the money the foreigners make. And they don´t give a damn about who or what they destroy in the process. There are no higher motives - it´s that simple!

Just a story on the side:
I spoke to an egyptian national (a driver) today who told me, that he was working with a divecenter/hotel for some time. About three months after he left he met a guy he knew as a dishwasher in the hotels kitchen at a divesite. He asked him what he´s doing there and got the reply that he is now a Divemaster. The guy can´t even swim...

That´s the kind of quality-divemasters we are going to get, and that´s probably the kind of people who are shouting the loudest right now to protect their rights. A right, being a DM, they haven´t even earned properly!

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

I care because they are ruining my bread and butter in the process! I care because when I see illogical and stupid shortsightedness I can´t ignore it. I care, because when I feel emotions are getting the upper hand over logic the endresult rarely is pleasent!


No, let´s be honest, it´s about envy and greed!
Those worthless DMs and instructors that can´t find a job otherwise want us out because they want the honeypot. If they were any good they would find jobs easily, because as I already said, any sensible owner of a divecenter would be more than happy to employ Egyptians if they were on the same level as foreigners to avoid all the bureaucratic hassle. You can argue all day about justice, national pride, legal rights, consequences for the industry and so on. When it comes down to it, it´s only about money! They just want the money the foreigners make. And they don´t give a damn about who or what they destroy in the process. There are no higher motives - it´s that simple!

Just a story on the side:
I spoke to an egyptian national (a driver) today who told me, that he was working with a divecenter/hotel for some time. About three months after he left he met a guy he knew as a dishwasher in the hotels kitchen at a divesite. He asked him what he´s doing there and got the reply that he is now a Divemaster. The guy can´t even swim...

That´s the kind of quality-divemasters we are going to get, and that´s probably the kind of people who are shouting the loudest right now to protect their rights. A right, being a DM, they haven´t even earned properly!

Your bread and butter? That's really interesting. As an investor or a staff member?

Regarding the motives, etc, well, what you mentioned is pretty subjective. Let's be more objective please.

As for the side story, I can tell scores of stories about foreign staff that is here just for fun. The are endless stories about foreign staff going to their "job" in the morning; drunk!

 

[String]

Turn up drunk, get fired. Simple. At least thats what reputable dive centres will do. The same reputable centres that get the right paperwork and permits for its staff! The ones with a good reputation they don't want to see damaged by employing a liability like that (or employing a poor staff member).

There is a very worrying large number of Egyptian DMs that were just signed up by their mate that have no idea what a DM involves having never done the course. As above, the GOOD Egyptian guides and instructors already have jobs - centres love them because they dont need a ratio to employ, they contribute to the 10:1 ratio for the foreigners they NEED, they dont have long winded and complex work permit and CDWS issues, they can freelance and so on. A GOOD egyptian guide is very valuable to a centre and these people already have jobs.
All the shouting and whining is coming from the bad ones that cant get jobs or those that work for a centre once and never get asked back.
I really dont think a deliberate policy of removing all foreigners or pricing them out so that the really bad guys can get employment is the way forward!
Dive centres rely on reputation. If they start sending useless and/or dangerous guides and instructors purely because they've been told they HAVE to employ them then their business wont last long. A crap guide quite often means a customer wont come back.

The ultimate motivation is money - they think they can charge the foreigners as much as they like and they'll still pay it (1000 euros a year when you may well earn less than that!). They see it as easy pickings.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

As an investor, one knows beforehand that the ratio is 10% foreigners. This is not new. Foreign workers have been tolerated for decades, however, the ratio has never been officially discarded.

As an investor, if one fails to hire his/her proper staff in a legal manner, this should be considered as a major business threat. To depend (and actually build one's business!) on something like "Hey, the foreign workers are all over the place and we can hire/freelance whenever we want. The Egyptians won't put the ratio into action because the industry needs the foreigners" is a major flaw in one's business model (if he/she has one!).

A win-win situation could have emerged if the centers would have built their capable, local staff. This simply didn't happen. Those investors should blame no one but their own selves.

 

[String]

Rubbish. You can't blame the centres for the cowboy local instructors randomly signing up their mates or the cowboy local owners giving people DM courses purely so they can guide for them.

Again, the good centres HAVE built up local staff. The good staff have jobs. I see the local staff at everything from tank guy through to divers being put *properly* through the grades and advancing.

The good, capable local staff are already employed. Its the poor, incapable locals getting bitter about this. That's nothing to do with the investors.

 

[macrobubble]

As an investor, one knows beforehand that the ratio is 10% foreigners. This is not new. Foreign workers have been tolerated for decades, however, the ratio has never been officially discarded.

That´s simply not true!
There was an agreement between the Ministry of Labour (or whatever it´s called) and the Ministry of Tourism that for legally registered/licenced companies/divecenters the ratio should be 10:3. It doesn´t get more official than that and investors of course have to rely on the reliabilty of government decisions. You just can not change the rules back and forth if you want to attract investments of foreign money. Stability is a very important factor in making investment decisions. If Egypt was to change the rules of the game on a monthly bases you will see a sharp decline in foreign investments in all industries, not only diving. Many developing countries had to learn that the hard way. And don´t tell me, Egypt doesn´t need foreign money...
It is common practice, btw, in a lot of countries to set such ratios differently for different industries, based on demand of foreign knowledge and the availability of a skilled local labour force.

That also made a lot of sense because the small centers simply can not employ 20 Egyptians if they need 2 foreigners that speak the language of the customers. Maybe you do not want small centers, and like only the big ones, which cater to hundreds of divers at a time. But especially here in Dahab you don´t have these mass-diving-huge-centers. Here, most are small, have 4 to 10 divers average and just need one instructor and maybe 2 DMs. Plus office guy/girl, driver, compressor staff, someone to keep the center clean and so on. In season they might need to have an additional freelancer or two. For all that a 10:3 ratio is sensible. There is no need here for boat crews, that inflate the staff to a level where a 10:1 ratio might just work.

So, as an investor you have to rely on basic ground rules, set by the government. These were absolutely clear to be officially on a 10:3 ratio. You change that, and 75% of the centers in Dahab can not comply - or they have to employ second- and third rate staff. With all the consequences that follow. It is a fact, that inexperienced divers, which form the majority of the customer base these days, search specifically for a center where the diving staff speaks their language, is properly trained, has a high level of experience and is aware of the needs of their guests. People that maybe themselves speak little english (Italians, Germans, Russians, French etc) don´t want to be trained by instructors that barely speak english. They just don´t book with these centers! If you ask beginners: "would you have come to this center if you had to take your course in a foreign language?" close to 100% will say "No!".
In a service industry it is all about want the customers want and need - not, what the staff might like or not! You don´t follow that groundrule and you are out of business in no time. And then there are no jobs for anybody...

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

When the last DC license was issued in Dahab, the ratio was 10:1 (unenforced). So if you have a DC license, this means that you have made your business decision (investing in Dahab) while being completely aware of this. Upon trying to enforce the ratio, a lot of "ramble" took place. It was amended to 7:1 then to 10:3. However, no one ever mentioned that these new ratios are to replace the original one forever. They were just for smoother transition.

As for the foreign investment and the amount of jobs they're offering to Egyptians (and the *proper* grading and advancing BTW), do you know how many centers exist in Dahab? What if a catastrophic 50% of these closed their doors (which won't happen anyway)? How many job will the local staff lose? Answer these questions and you'll discover that you actually don't have a case to defend.

I'll try to make myself more clear this time. The only win-win situation could have emerged if the centers would have built their capable, local staff. By building I mean "adopting"; to pick up a local and engage him in a *proper* training/learning curve up to the instruction/language/attitude level you're happy with.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

Read the following article and you'll get a broader idea. It describes exactly the same situation we're addressing here:

Egypt labor ministry tackles unemployment, minimum wage and syndical pluralism - Economy - Business - Ahram Online