Work permit situation and a ramble

[Red Sea Shadow]

If I were in the shoes of an owner of a big center who absolutely HAS TO have additional instructors and DMs I would be between a rock and a hard place. Either I hire "illegal" instructors as freelancers, getting into trouble with the authorities, or I go with really poor locals who would in no time destroy the reputation of my center and thereby my business. There was an egyptian instructor who asked for examption from the CDWS-exam on the reason that he can´t read and write - imagine that! I had to deal repeatedly with local DMs who didn´t have the first clue about guiding, environment - not to speak of diving theory (and customer DO ask questions!). Ask any feelancing egyptian DM complex questions and you would be horrified in the vast majority of cases. That´s not racism on my part, that´s experience!
If the foreigners are to leave, owners would be forced to hire Egyptians with a level of knowledge they would under no circumstances tolerate with foreign staff.

There is a point in tolerating illagal workers:
The point is, that if the industry suffers any more by new, foolishly implemented restrictions, there simply would not be more jobs for locals, there will be less because many centers will just close down or will not be able to survive. The call for "jobs for Egyptians only" will have exactely the opposite effect. That is not only bad for the Egyptians, it ruins the livelihood of many investors in the process. Some people should ask themselves, if short term gains are worth the long term losses...

I don't think the locals will tolerate illegal workers. As for ruining the industry on the long term, they don't see it that way. Well, in my humble opinion, the end result will incur some losses, but not as huge as you might think. The Red Sea resorts are not based upon the diving industry. People will eventually survive.

Start building your own local, loyal staff. And start it right now. Train the untrained, and don't wait for "initiatives". This way you'll be ready when no one else is. Otherwise blame no one but yourself.

 

[macrobubble]

I don't think the locals will tolerate illegal workers. As for ruining the industry on the long term, they don't see it that way.

1 - That´s the point: Don´t make stupid changes that "produces" illegal workers, give foreigners the opportunity to work legally!
2 - The decline of the diving industry in the Red Sea has already begun. Not only because of decreasing quality of more and more centers, but also because around the world more destinations have opened up and are able to provide equal or in part better quality diving and diving centers. Those who don´t look only upon themselves and their needs and wishes, but also look what is going on around them, should be aware of the increasingly bad reputation Egypt has gotten in diving circles around the globe in the last two decades.

If now the still much needed foreign knowledge, experience and skills were to be eliminated over night and replaced by unsufficiently trained and skilled personal, the market would not tolerate that.
It might well be, that in the overall picture the losses in the diving industry would be equalized by beach combers or other areas of egyptian tourism, but that would not help egyptian DMs or instructors. They would simply find less jobs available. Maybe then, they all want to become tour guides instead of dive guides. Or they would have to clean hotel rooms for 500.- LE per month...

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

1 - That´s the point: Don´t make stupid changes that "produces" illegal workers, give foreigners the opportunity to work legally!
2 - The decline of the diving industry in the Red Sea has already begun. Not only because of decreasing quality of more and more centers, but also because around the world more destinations have opened up and are able to provide equal or in part better quality diving and diving centers. Those who don´t look only upon themselves and their needs and wishes, but also look what is going on around them, should be aware of the increasingly bad reputation Egypt has gotten in diving circles around the globe in the last two decades.

If now the still much needed foreign knowledge, experience and skills were to be eliminated over night and replaced by unsufficiently trained and skilled personal, the market would not tolerate that.
It might well be, that in the overall picture the losses in the diving industry would be equalized by beach combers or other areas of egyptian tourism, but that would not help egyptian DMs or instructors. They would simply find less jobs available. Maybe then, they all want to become tour guides instead of dive guides. Or they would have to clean hotel rooms for 500.- LE per month...

1. No changes have been made. The locals are only asking to enforce the 10% rule, which has been around for decades. That's it.
2. No one is talking about eliminating all foreigners over night, however, everyone should stick to the rules. It will definitely allow more room for the local staff. Some locals are good enough, some will enhance and some won't. In conclusion, I'd say the whole picture for the local staff would be better, but not as much as people hope for. As for the whole industry, there must be some centralized effort. Hopefully the syndicate (under construction) will do this job.

The 500 LE per month days are gone forever. Believe me.

 

[Crowley]

I had my first trip to Dahab today since December and was warned to watch out for an Egpytian dive guide who is trying to get friendly with foreign dive staff, maybe over a surface interval at the blue hole, and if he suspects a foreigner does not have a work permit, he reports them to the police.

Foreigners have been arrested, although I understand that whilst threatened by deportation, this has not happened.

I am hearing more and more about this, and I don't like it. Not just the hike in price for the work permits, but the drive to remove foreign staff from Egypt. Maybe a few people took a chance but all of my friends and colleagues in sharm have work permits; it was a requirement for employment; I had no choice... but if I did, I would have chosen to get a work permit.

Work permits for foreign dive staff is not exactly first and foremost in the minds of the people who are apparently in charge of running the country. I expect they are thinking more simple things, such as "we got rid of the government, what do we do now?"

And I think that whatever system is in place at the moment is being used by some Egyptians to get rid of foreign staff. Fair enough, if a rule is deliberately broken, then some form of penalty must apply - but arrest and deportation for people who were probably trying to get a work permit before the excrement hit the propellor and their passports got stuck in Cairo?

What gets to me the most is a sentiment that sort of makes you feel that if you don't have a work permit, you are a criminal, end of story. I don''t know the people involved in the arrests but I am sure they had no malicious intent against the egyptian people, or were deliberately trying to beat the system. I'm sure a fine and an instruction to get a work permit within three months or something - or else really get deported - would be fine.

Somebody has been reporting bogus shark attacks in sharm. A deliberate attempt to recude foreign tourism here. Another series of shark attacks would cripple Sharm El Sheikh. THOUSANDS of people would be out of work and money, mostly Egyptians.

So to foreigners, go and sort out your work permits, and to Egyptians, please give us the chance to get them, bearing in the mind that "Egypt time", which is rather a lot slower than "german time", is a real and genuine phenomenon.

Cheers all

C.

 

[String]

I had my first trip to Dahab today since December and was warned to watch out for an Egpytian dive guide who is trying to get friendly with foreign dive staff, maybe over a surface interval at the blue hole, and if he suspects a foreigner does not have a work permit, he reports them to the police.

The dahab diving mafia lot are mainly doing this (along with verbal threats to dive centres amongst other things).
The simple answer to make sure all standards and CDWS rule violations you see broken by the egyptians are reported to the agency and government bodies all the time rather than the blind eye that's often turned.
Its mainly these poor instructors who cant get jobs that are stirring the pot - the GOOD egyptians already have jobs.
If anyone wants to see my papers i'll show them to the proper authorities who have the proper jurisdiction - i will not show them or even discuss whether i have them or not to some random unemployed trouble maker.

Foreigners have been arrested, although I understand that whilst threatened by deportation, this has not happened.

There were (scare) stories about 100 people arrested. The real number seems to be nearer 5. 2 of the main windsurfing schools got raided and 3 people arrested. It took a lawyer and some backsheesh a total of about 12 hours to get them released and the charges dropped so some things never change.
People are routinely bribing their way through checkpoints so that hasn't changed either.

Work permits for foreign dive staff is not exactly first and foremost in the minds of the people who are apparently in charge of running the country. I expect they are thinking more simple things, such as "we got rid of the government, what do we do now?"

Certainly the attitude post january has been a lot less welcoming to foreigners - its certainly more nationalist borderline racist even for legit workers. There's more of it on land - lots of things such as the "im egyptian its my country" excuse for any wrong doing when someone dares to complain. Things that simply weren't heard before.

The general problem seems to be they see the foreigner as a cash cow - they'll ask for expensive chargers and expect the "rich foreigner to pay it no matter what". They seem to ignore the fact we earn the same as them for the same job. They think people will happily stick around no matter what so can ask an extortionate price. They could be in trouble with this - i wont (and doubt many others will) pay for a new permit when the cost of it added to living expenses mean id expect to make a financial loss for a years worth of work! People will simply go back to working illegally or just leave. If they leave they're in trouble - the local staff simply aren't able to do the job. There aren't enough good quality local instructors and especially legit divemasters or with the language skills required. People also come for a european face or one from their own country and actively chose to be taught by someone from the same country, same culture and language.

While some of these policies aren't generally malicious in intent some organisations do seem to be acting deliberately in this (the dahab one in particular). There's a very big risk of shooting themselves in the foot and further damaging their tourist trade - something that is ALREADY extremely badly damaged.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

What gets to me the most is a sentiment that sort of makes you feel that if you don't have a work permit, you are a criminal, end of story.

Today, Cairo Airport received 54 Egyptians deported from Italy. They were working without work permits.

 

[macrobubble]

Today, Cairo Airport received 54 Egyptians deported from Italy. They were working without work permits.

I don´t believe they had skills that could not be found among italian workers and they were probably also in the country illegally..

Germany, for example, has explicitely invited worker from other countries (eg. qualified Indians for IT-jobs) to come to Germany to live and work there because a lack of qualified Germans for this growing industry. Yes, there was a lot of discussion before this was done, but it shows what reasonable politics could be.

 

[Red Sea Shadow]

I don´t believe they had skills that could not be found among italian workers and they were probably also in the country illegally..

I believe they were taking jobs the Italians are not willing to do, otherwise they won't have a foot there.

The point is, the Italian government didn't legalize that for them. Moreover, the Italians didn't even bother to "tolerate" them illegally (the Americans did for decades with Mexicans and other Latins).

Entering the country illegally is a crime. Entering the country as a tourist and violating this condition (on purpose) is a crime as well.

 

[macrobubble]

I believe they were taking jobs the Italians are not willing to do, otherwise they won't have a foot there.

Exactely!
The Italians could, but don´t want to - the Egyptians want but can´t...
See the difference?

Please answer one question: Do you think that at this time there are enough qualified egyptian DMs and instructors available to fill the jobs that are currently taken by foreigners? And I mean as qualified as those foreigners are! Same skilllevel, same level of knowledge and same level of experience. Do you believe Egyptians are currently in average as qualified as foreigners?

If your answer is "Yes" then there is no need for further discussion since we will never agree on anything, having completely different basic viewpoints.
If your answer is "No" then getting rid of foreigners will surely lead to a downward spiral in quality of service for the paying customers. With all resulting consequences...

 

[Crowley]

Today, Cairo Airport received 54 Egyptians deported from Italy. They were working without work permits.

Sorry Asser, but there is a huge difference between the motivation of a non-european to want to enter Italy (or France or Germany or England or wherever) and the motivations of simple dive staff.

One is an attempt to get out of a system that beat them into the ground, to seek a land of new opportunity, in the hope they can feed their poor familes. They go to these places because they are desperate, but then a vast number of them sponge off the government, get free health treatment, subsidies, less taxes, whatever, because they either cannot afford it or it is not obtainable in their own country, and just risking deportation from their destination of choice means they will benefit.

We are here to do something we love in a place we love to do it. We are taking nothing from Egypt, and the money we earn is a small commission on services made to hundreds of thousands of foreign tourists who are bringing millions and millions of cash Euros to Egypt.

There is a huge difference in motivation, and I could blather on endlessly about racism, and for sure some instructors think they can get away without having a work permit, but I don't think there are many foreign staff here who really *want* to get away with it - and most would like to have a proper paper stuck into their passport. A person's eligibility to live in a certain country is mostly a matter of shuffling around some paperwork and stamping it in the appropriate colour.

It's not the legality that is the big issue, it's the social aspect. If I stood in the middle of Trafalgar Square in London with a big banner saying "foreigners go home", I'd probably be arrested just to make sure I wasn't beaten into the pavement, and then prosecuted anyway.

As I said before, it's great that people have a voice, but then the authorities need to decide what is sensible or criminal. That's kinda the way modern democracy works - elect some people to do the shouting for you, fight over many insignificant things, and then bow down before the might of the the American Dollar. Or possibly the Chinese Yuan in years to come, but "Dollar" rolls of the tongue more easily.

A thief is somebody who takes things from other people. I would suggest that most foreign dive staff want to *give* something to other people. And by that I mean diving, not after-hours hanky-panky.

I am still hopeful that it will all work out in the end, but I was on a Dahab trip yesterday and I can feel the difference there. It's not so obvious in Sharm, but Sharm is a completely different world. Most centres in Dahab (even big names) are small, whereas the big centres in Sharm cater to over 250 people per day in high season, are owned by hotels and the 10:1 employee ratio is much easier to achieve. This is not as easy in Dahab, but also I think the regulations (until now) have been less strictly applied there.

One day last year all CDWS cards were confiscated at the jetty in Na'ama Bay to match up with existing or expired work permits. Everything worked out fine - people without work permits were told to get them - not arrested and threatened with deportation. (as an aside, I am aware the recent numbers have been exaggerated - I only know of two actual arrests in Dahab)

I will fight my corner because I love my job here - and thankfully am fully legal, but if the reports in this forum come true, it will become more difficult for me to stay here, and that sucks. Like I say - it's not the rules, it's the attitude.

Once upon a time in America, there were bars and restaurants that displayed a sign saying: "no blacks"....

The bigger picture, please.

C.