Work permit situation and a ramble

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The situation is "interesting" at the very least, come september Egypt COULD be a very different place for foreigners.

All work permits expire in September. Even if you get one this week it still expires then and costs the full amount. The new ones are estimated at €1000 from September. This is a massive increase. As an example last year under the "old" permit cost i managed to save €1000 in total in that calendar year (this year far will be far lower).

With that new increased cost, combined with the massive drop off in tourists its possible you'll never recoup that.
The new permits are also according to the lawyers for a maximum of 3 years (ie 3 x 1 year then no more issued). This will nicely ensure no experienced staff or managers are around as they have to leave before they advance up the tree!

This information has been confirmed by 3 separate people so would appear to be true. The interim government also expressed its desire to stop as many work permits as possible to foreigners in all fields. This could tally with the above.

As for CDWS, it claims its in charge, the court would suspect otherwise, the EDLF claims its in charge, nobody else agrees. Its a mess. CDWS is mounting a propaganda campaign trying to get member centres to sign petitions saying "we are the one true god" and other groups are springing up in the power vacuum.
Here for example we have a dahab divers "forum". Made up by egyptians whose stated goal is the removal of foreigners from diving. They have no official power, no official recognition but rent offices, have a marketing machine, give out stickers and claim they're in charge.

Most dive centres here i know of that normally do work permits have frozen it for now - they've held onto the funds but not put the applications through due to the September expiry and so on plus the fact here at least CDWS is being roundly ignored even by the checkpoints. The centres are playing a waiting game to see how it pans out.

The events of January have certainly increased nationalism (id hesitate to use the word racism but speaking to some of the people involved its not far off). There are a lot of unrealistic expectations and assessments of the current local work force especially in terms of languages, standards and how much they can milk out of "rich" foreign instructors.

If they DO go through with this then i can see a return to the old system of backsheesh to turn a blind eye otherwise the diving industry will likely come to a halt - there simply aren't the locals available to fill the demand especially when you add secondary skills and languages.

September is make or break for the tourism industry here - if they get it wrong they can demolish the diving sector very quickly.

(That and the current lawlessness is getting annoying, far fewer police, those that are here are now scared of EVERYONE so act against nothing, large increase in robberies etc).

There is still a problem with locals getting DM signed up "by their mate so they can work" and this does cause a lot of really low quality divemasters. As someone else here pointed out a few days ago, the GOOD Egyptian instructors already have jobs - they're want centres wanted provided they're fluent in English or other languages they dont need the mess with work permits, CDWS delays and can freelance. Its mainly the BAD ones that are forming these groups and complaining. Egyptian diving staff (other than one centre i can think of...) get paid an identical wage to foreigners - the commissions make no allowance for nationality.
 
Here for example we have a dahab divers "forum". Made up by egyptians whose stated goal is the removal of foreigners from diving. They have no official power, no official recognition but rent offices, have a marketing machine, give out stickers and claim they're in charge.
I'm not a member at this new assembly. However, they're a registered NGO, which gives them official recognition. As for the power, they could go as powerful as HEPCA (for instance not for comparison), as they have the same legal structure.
 
Most dive centres here i know of that normally do work permits have frozen it for now - they've held onto the funds but not put the applications through due to the September expiry and so on plus the fact here at least CDWS is being roundly ignored even by the checkpoints. The centres are playing a waiting game to see how it pans out.

Not a wise course of action, as the new assembly members know every legal (and illegal) worker in town. As you might know, they arranged a campaign (along with the police) a couple of days ago and managed to catch more than 100 illegal worker.
 
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I managed to save €1000 in total in that calendar year
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Now that's important. I've posted the following question more than once on private B2B forums yet the answers were not as expected.

What do you think a "promising" future in the dive industry should look like? A well-known dive instructor/trip organizer? A combination of sort-of-permanent dive-related job and instruction/trip organization? A dive center/live-aboard owner?

Of course there are other roads to hit. What do you (all dive professionals over here) think?
 
String,

1000 euros would nail most Dahab instructors.
I have a few friends still there that we're probably mutual friends with and they say that a lot of the old faces have dissappeared. Dahab just isn't the money maker like the other resorts areas.

My very last dive in Dahab was to take an instructor through the arch. He came up from hurghada, in his own 4WD and his own twinset :shocked2: He told me and my buddy Dan what he earned a month and it was astounding. It made our monthly incomes look like DM's. But he's not unique in this. I've had friends based in Marsa Alam and they get continual 4 pax OW courses or set wages of over 1200 euros a month. Dahab is not that environment. It's not a place you go to save whereas the rest of Egypt can be.

It's always been said that Dahab instructors love to dive and don't need the money, but with these prices say farewell to Dahab's rep as Backpacker haven as the shops will have to raise prices to get instructors to work there... unless the shop only uses Egyptian instructors who don't need a work permit!

Then again. I've been through those checkpoints on another instructors CDWS before now. The police really don't look that hard at the photos. I'm sure I could photoshop my old 2009 cdws and be well away... not that I would suggest that.. :crafty:
 
Not a wise course of action, as the new assembly members know every legal (and illegal) worker in town. As you might know, they arranged a campaign (along with the police) a couple of days ago and managed to catch more than 100 illegal worker.

Im well aware of whats happened - and for some reason a recent purge of windsurf operators but these centres (some of which are larger ones) have decided that its not worth bothering to comply. They're not stupid, they've been around a while and certainly their owners and probably lawyers have some idea of relative risk vs benefit.

A load of the dahab dive mafia went pestering the police a few days ago to demand they check work permits then went round centres verbally threatening centres who ignored ther demands. Hopefully this group will just be roundly ignored as its deluded and idiotic. They're simply trying to fill in the regulatory power vacuum. There could well be a war triggered by its more infamous and dubious members getting reported for the countless standards violations.

I cant see anyone in their right mind paying out ~4000LE for a work permit now which will expire on 7/09 on what is looking to be the quietest season ever - they might not be able to recoup that cost at all. By absolute luck my permit would expire a month after that in any case so ive only lost a month but i certainly wouldnt fork out now the same amount for 3 months of validity and questionable enforcement.
 
By absolute luck my permit would expire a month after that in any case so ive only lost a month but i certainly wouldnt fork out now the same amount for 3 months of validity and questionable enforcement.
Now you agree on one main point with the assembly members; there's no enough work for everyone in Dahab. Since you have your valid work permit, that's great. For the ones who don't, they should either get one or enjoy Dahab as tourists (as their visa or passport stamp says). There's no point in tolerating illegal workers in the current circumstances.
 
Now you agree on one main point with the assembly members; there's no enough work for everyone in Dahab. Since you have your valid work permit, that's great. For the ones who don't, they should either get one or enjoy Dahab as tourists (as their visa or passport stamp says). There's no point in tolerating illegal workers in the current circumstances.

The situation here is very very few have work permits so people without HAVE to be employed. Despite it being quiet a lot of regulars have left.
It shouldn't be used as an excuse to hire the really poor instructors or those with known dodgy reputations. The good Egyptians already have good jobs, its the poor ones that don't. I cant think of a single decent egyptian instructor or guide i work with or have worked with that's in favour of this forum.

The "quiet" isnt just number of people, in total, its things like 4 pax courses are now 1 pax etc so requite the same number of people just those people earn less - ie the groups are smaller.

Dahab pay (as you're aware) is quite a lot less than other areas. Yes rent and food etc is cheaper here but that is going up quite quickly and wages haven't reflected it.

Im generalising but an "average" instructor wage per week is in the region of 150-180 euros (ok its a lot more in peak weeks but far lower in the dead periods).
Rents can cost about 190 euro, food and drink along with other expenses at least 10 euro a day.
So thats over 500-550 a month minimum to survive. It doesnt leave a lot of overhead for savings.

(ok its a massive generalisation but a very rough guesstimate of living here).
 
Dahab pay (as you're aware) is quite a lot less than other areas. Yes rent and food etc is cheaper here but that is going up quite quickly and wages haven't reflected it.

Im generalising but an "average" instructor wage per week is in the region of 150-180 euros (ok its a lot more in peak weeks but far lower in the dead periods).
Rents can cost about 190 euro, food and drink along with other expenses at least 10 euro a day.
So thats over 500-550 a month minimum to survive. It doesnt leave a lot of overhead for savings.

(ok its a massive generalisation but a very rough guesstimate of living here).
Yeah I'm aware of that. The thing is, Dahab's pay structure is different than other areas. Dahab work relies to a great extent on freelancers.

In other areas around the Red Sea, permanent hire (or full-time freelancing) is way more common. Working for a reputable operator, you get some 900-1,000 Euro basic + other bonus/fringes based on work flow. Normally you average 1,200-1,400 Euro per month.

Can you think of a reply to post 64?
 
Now you agree on one main point with the assembly members; there's no enough work for everyone in Dahab. Since you have your valid work permit, that's great. For the ones who don't, they should either get one or enjoy Dahab as tourists (as their visa or passport stamp says). There's no point in tolerating illegal workers in the current circumstances.
If I were in the shoes of an owner of a big center who absolutely HAS TO have additional instructors and DMs I would be between a rock and a hard place. Either I hire "illegal" instructors as freelancers, getting into trouble with the authorities, or I go with really poor locals who would in no time destroy the reputation of my center and thereby my business. There was an egyptian instructor who asked for examption from the CDWS-exam on the reason that he can´t read and write - imagine that! I had to deal repeatedly with local DMs who didn´t have the first clue about guiding, environment - not to speak of diving theory (and customer DO ask questions!). Ask any feelancing egyptian DM complex questions and you would be horrified in the vast majority of cases. That´s not racism on my part, that´s experience!
If the foreigners are to leave, owners would be forced to hire Egyptians with a level of knowledge they would under no circumstances tolerate with foreign staff.

There is a point in tolerating illagal workers:
The point is, that if the industry suffers any more by new, foolishly implemented restrictions, there simply would not be more jobs for locals, there will be less because many centers will just close down or will not be able to survive. The call for "jobs for Egyptians only" will have exactely the opposite effect. That is not only bad for the Egyptians, it ruins the livelihood of many investors in the process. Some people should ask themselves, if short term gains are worth the long term losses...
 

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