Unknown Woody From “Dive Talk” DCS and Medical Journey

[crofrog]

I'm surpised that neither of you nor woddy went to the chamber at Lyford Cay Hospital is it still operating?

Welcome to the SSS Recompression Chamber Network

 

[Blackwater Hunter]

Not normal restriction in cave diving, nor what being a full cave diver has trained or qualified you for. Nor a side mount class.

Major restrictions like that require training specific to that type of activity. Advanced side mount cave.

Yours,

A cave instructor trainer.

Honestly each one had gotten stuck through that restriction on KISS Sidewinders with one of them losing access to their BOV and MAV... I am as green as they come (Still Open Water Diver, waiting for more money) and even I know you should never put yourself in a position where you lose access to your spare or bailout, and that's just on OC. It gets incredibly dangerous for mCCR's, where the slightest mistake could be fatal,

I have no proof of my assumption, but I believe something occurred when Woody got stuck in the restriction that contributed or outright caused his DCS. Also at that depth, they had to have been narc'ed out of their minds. Explains the calmness they both were experiencing. Again, I know assumptions aren't really helpful, but at the depth they were at, OCA and Trimix are worlds apart.

Also is it far fetched to say he possibly could have suffered from a pulmonary embolism during his deco, thus making his oxygen absorbance drop? Chapter 3: Diagnosing Decompression Sickness

This seems like this could happen to anyone, even if they did everything right.

 

[L13]

This seems like this could happen to anyone, even if they did everything right.

Part of doing everything right is what you do after it happens, not just before.

 

[Blackwater Hunter]

Part of doing everything right is what you do after it happens, not just before.

That's the part people tend to forget. With how experienced Woody is, you would think he would know that he was severely bent. Apparently Type 2 DCS can make any diver, no matter the experience, completely oblivious (The rapid onset of severe fatigue honestly should have been the biggest red flag). Add in Type 2 DCS "Chokes", and Woody had a recipe for disaster. Honestly he needed fluids just as bad as the oxygen therapy. Once his cognitive ability collapsed, he wouldn't have noticed how dehydrated he was until he was already on IV.

It wasn't that restriction that I first thought, it had to be the fact he was slightly dehydrated. Dehydration makes it very hard for the human body to decompress. Hydration AND Temperature are all important factors to a deco profile working, and it's so "obvious" that it's considered a given for deco tables. Woody's only severe mistake (That I know of) was simply just diving slightly thirsty. That was it. Pretty shocking that something so innocuous could cascade into a medical and logistical nightmare. The symptoms afterward were handled reactively instead of proactively because Woody followed the deco procedure to the T and one minute extra. Everything BUT Type 2 DCS was on Brian and Gus' minds. This isn't all conjecture either, Woody admitted to diving slightly thirsty to avoid peeing in his drysuit (He didn't have a pee valve).

Any neurologist, pulmonologist, and EMT divers in this forum, are there field tests that can be used to determine the likelihood of severe DCS, Barotrauma, or air embolisms? Any post dive injury that could go unnoticed. I've seen scenarios where DCS was extremely slow to start showing symptoms, but regardless were severe enough for emergency decompression.

Delayed Treatment of Decompression Sickness with Short, No-Air-Break Tables: Review of 140 Cases

 

[crofrog]

That's the part people tend to forget. With how experienced Woody is, you would think he would know that he was severely bent. Apparently Type 2 DCS can make any diver, no matter the experience, completely oblivious (The rapid onset of severe fatigue honestly should have been the biggest red flag). Add in Type 2 DCS "Chokes", and Woody had a recipe for disaster. Honestly he needed fluids just as bad as the oxygen therapy. Once his cognitive ability collapsed, he wouldn't have noticed how dehydrated he was until he was already on IV.

It wasn't that restriction that I first thought, it had to be the fact he was slightly dehydrated. Dehydration makes it very hard for the human body to decompress. Hydration AND Temperature are all important factors to a deco profile working, and it's so "obvious" that it's considered a given for deco tables. Woody's only severe mistake (That I know of) was simply just diving slightly thirsty. That was it. Pretty shocking that something so innocuous could cascade into a medical and logistical nightmare. The symptoms afterward were handled reactively instead of proactively because Woody followed the deco procedure to the T and one minute extra. Everything BUT Type 2 DCS was on Brian and Gus' minds. This isn't all conjecture either, Woody admitted to diving slightly thirsty to avoid peeing in his drysuit (He didn't have a pee valve).

Any neurologist, pulmonologist, and EMT divers in this forum, are there field tests that can be used to determine the likelihood of severe DCS, Barotrauma, or air embolisms? Any post dive injury that could go unnoticed. I've seen scenarios where DCS was extremely slow to start showing symptoms, but regardless were severe enough for emergency decompression.

Delayed Treatment of Decompression Sickness with Short, No-Air-Break Tables: Review of 140 Cases

Chapter 3: Diagnosing Decompression Sickness

DCS is commonly thought of as a bubble disease, but bubbles are probably only the gateway to a complex array of consequences and effects.

dan.org

 

[CT-Rich]

That's the part people tend to forget. With how experienced Woody is, you would think he would know that he was severely bent. Apparently Type 2 DCS can make any diver, no matter the experience, completely oblivious (The rapid onset of severe fatigue honestly should have been the biggest red flag). Add in Type 2 DCS "Chokes", and Woody had a recipe for disaster. Honestly he needed fluids just as bad as the oxygen therapy. Once his cognitive ability collapsed, he wouldn't have noticed how dehydrated he was until he was already on IV.

It wasn't that restriction that I first thought, it had to be the fact he was slightly dehydrated. Dehydration makes it very hard for the human body to decompress. Hydration AND Temperature are all important factors to a deco profile working, and it's so "obvious" that it's considered a given for deco tables. Woody's only severe mistake (That I know of) was simply just diving slightly thirsty. That was it. Pretty shocking that something so innocuous could cascade into a medical and logistical nightmare. The symptoms afterward were handled reactively instead of proactively because Woody followed the deco procedure to the T and one minute extra. Everything BUT Type 2 DCS was on Brian and Gus' minds. This isn't all conjecture either, Woody admitted to diving slightly thirsty to avoid peeing in his drysuit (He didn't have a pee valve).

Any neurologist, pulmonologist, and EMT divers in this forum, are there field tests that can be used to determine the likelihood of severe DCS, Barotrauma, or air embolisms? Any post dive injury that could go unnoticed. I've seen scenarios where DCS was extremely slow to start showing symptoms, but regardless were severe enough for emergency decompression.

Delayed Treatment of Decompression Sickness with Short, No-Air-Break Tables: Review of 140 Cases

Woody, according to his linked in profile, logged 7,500 dives. This one he got bent on. Plenty of divers do things a certain way for years and never get bit. I know I am guilty of doing things the way I was taught in 1980 and continue to do so today. I am doubtful the dehydration was the cause (or the only cause). That he mentioned it is why everyone is latching on to it like a dog with a bone.

It was most likely a confluence of things, fatigue, age, mild hypothermia, struggling with the restriction, his choice decompression algorithm (these are just models we think will keep us safe, and he was obviously wrong for that dive and that day).

It will be interesting to see if they release the computer profile if different models would correctly predict whether he would get bent. I am not an expert on deco by any means, but the Physiology is never wrong, the model just didn’t get it right.

 

[Joneill]

It will be interesting to see if they release the computer profile if different models would correctly predict whether he would get bent. I am not an expert on deco by any means, but the Physiology is never wrong, the model just didn’t get it right.

There is an image of the profile page on his DC in this post, if that helps:

Unknown - Woody From “Dive Talk” DCS and Medical Journey

I note he uses GF 40/70 which is a bit outdated. He also mentioned that he adds a minute to his stop so this probably changes his further to something like 35/70? That's not how that works.

scubaboard.com

 

[crofrog]

It was most likely a confluence of things, fatigue, age, mild hypothermia, struggling with the restriction, his choice decompression algorithm (these are just models we think will keep us safe, and he was obviously wrong for that dive and that day).

"Dehydration gets a substantial amount of attention in the lay diving community as a risk factor for DCS, but probably more than is warranted. Sound hydration is important for good health, both for general and for diving health, but for your dive profile, thermal stress and exertion level are far more important risk factors for DCS. The undue focus on dehydration is probably a result of two issues. The first is that substantial fluid shifts can result from DCS, often creating a need for substantial fluid therapy and creating an impression that this was a cause, rather than a consequence, of the disease. The second issue is human nature — the understandable desire to assign blame for a condition that is capricious. DCS is fickle. A diver may adhere to a similar dive profile many times without incident but then develop DCS while following the very same profile. It is comforting to try and identify a single causal agent, even if this is more wishful than factual. It is important for divers to realize that a multitude of factors can subtly affect the risk on any one dive and that there is a probabilistic nature to the disease. Focusing on a range of strategies to reduce risk is more effective than trying to put all the blame on one."



The work at max depth and likely increase CO2 retention at those depths are as likely to have contributed as dehydration.

"Elevated levels of carbon dioxide can increase the risk of DCS and lower the threshold for oxygen toxicity. Carbon dioxide is a potent vasodilator, meaning it causes the blood vessels to widen, increasing blood flow and the delivery of gases to tissues."


quotes from: Chapter 5: Factors Contributing to Decompression Stress

 

[L13]

That's the part people tend to forget. With how experienced Woody is, you would think he would know that he was severely bent.

Maybe he didn't know that he was "bent". But, if you believe his video, even before they left the dive site he knew that "something was seriously wrong". And, he believed that something was best treated with emergency O2. And, he should be experienced enough to recognized that seriously wrong + needs O2 = get professional help(or he shouldn't be doing these kinds of dives).

Also, if you watch the video, he was asked if he needed to pee shortly after exiting the water, once everyone realized how much he was struggling. They state in the video that this was an insightful question because not needing to pee in this situation would be possibly indicative of DCS, and that it was asked for this reason. Woody did not need to pee. So they ignored the insight and drove back to the shop for steaks.

 

[Searcaigh]

t was most likely a confluence of things, fatigue, age, mild hypothermia, struggling with the restriction, his choice decompression algorithm (these are just models we think will keep us safe, and he was obviously wrong for that dive and that day).

This ^^

It's called the Swiss Cheese Model, and alignment of various factors that on their own will probably not cause much of an issue, but combined can be disastrous.