Wing Design(s)

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Nemrod

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That's beyond taco... That looks like it belongs with the tank. Like a hotdog. Serious question, though, if you were to get absolutely 100% of the air out of that wing, would it still wrap completely around the tank like that? Like @Eric Sedletzky said earlier, it's good to have variety though. For some, that may be perfect.

Most likely it would not taco but would just flutter and flap in the breeze. It could depend upon the stiffness of the material as to the degree of flapping about it might do. But it would not stay sucked up around the wing, if fully empty of air.

N
 
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The Cosmicist

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I figured you'd say that.

Interesting. Your response just now made me think of another way to design a wing, not that it's a good idea necessarily. It would probably be expensive to manufacture.

All wing bladders are more or less tubes... A cross-section would show they are circular when inflated, like donuts or tire tubes. Why not create a triangluar-shaped inner bladder (and thus outer covering)? I have no idea how you'd accomplish this... Maybe a hard lining in the bladder or outer material that goes next to the cylinder? Maybe you could design the outer shell to bolt or bungee to the plate from underneath so it would only inflate upwards towards the cylinder. Due to the triangular design the cylinder and/or trim weights would never get in the way, and you could make the wing physically smaller for it's lift rating. And because it's only inflating towards the cylinder and bolted down from underneath, there should be no taco effect or flapping. Does that make any sense?
 

James79

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I figured you'd say that.

Interesting. Your response just now made me think of another way to design a wing, not that it's a good idea necessarily. It would probably be expensive to manufacture.

All wing bladders are more or less tubes... A cross-section would show they are circular when inflated, like donuts or tire tubes. Why not create a triangluar-shaped inner bladder (and thus outer covering)? I have no idea how you'd accomplish this... Maybe a hard lining in the bladder or outer material that goes next to the cylinder? Maybe you could design the outer shell to bolt or bungee to the plate from underneath so it would only inflate upwards towards the cylinder. Due to the triangular design the cylinder and/or trim weights would never get in the way, and you could make the wing physically smaller for it's lift rating. And because it's only inflating towards the cylinder and bolted down from underneath, there should be no taco effect or flapping. Does that make any sense?
If you look at Zeagle wings (which are horseshoe wings) they have fastex clips attaching the outer edge to the waistband to prevent taco-ing... Probably the closest production item to what you're thinking of.

Respectfully,

James
 

Rol diy

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My design... seem to work well for 15 years.
Dive right 60 lb classic first wing I ever bought... dove it with single tank HP 130.
That's what my brother and I came up with..
But now I dive twin LP72 and it is still great. It also helps with air shift.
I know some people hate bungee wings
And usually it's more lift than I need but I love having extra lift sometimes...
20210813_105703.jpg
 

ronscuba

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Are wing manufacturers still using the same bladder in different size wings ?

I used to have a Dive Rite Travel Wing and Oxycheq Mach 30. Both had issues with trapped air. Come to find, they used bladders from the wings the next size up, but put them into smaller wings. Air would get trapped in the folds. Not sure if they still do this.
 

Eric Sedletzky

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So the narrowness of the inner panel in a design like Oxycheq may not be a big factor, depending on the other equipment and exposure protection used. You and @Jcp2 are correct that only a small amount of lift should be needed (depending on depth and exposure protection) except for when you need to float your rig without you in it. The Optimal Buoyancy Computer that @rsingler created helps demonstrate this.
Floating your rig also depends on how big a tank, what weight of plate, and how much extra weight you bolted to the plate. It seems like it’s all the rage and in current fashion to run all your ballast non ditchable on your rig. I personally think this is nuts but there are plenty around here who swear by this new “balanced rig” theory, which in my estimation is a misnomer and not really balanced as I envision balancing to be. To me balanced means the rig is weighted and the diver is weighted to the point where if the two were separated at depth, i.e, removal of your rig at depth to clear an entanglement or other purpose, both the diver and the rig are neutrally buoyant, therefore are considered “balanced”.

If the rig has all the ballast attached then you’ll need a monster wing to float the works.
If the rig does not have all the ballast integrated because the diver is using an actual weightbelt then you can use a smaller wing and even a wing with a narrower inner panel if it works.
 

happy-diver

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And I am somewhat surprised you say the OMS is heavier duty than the Oxy. Perhaps they have changed since I got my 30 and 18 Mach V wings but I have yet to see a wing with heavier materials.

Yeah I've got those wings, this mono is stiff as a board, even makes stiff board noises
seriously behaves like the deniers have been filled with resin, old canvas diaphragms

That's it, the "cordura" has the qualities of waterproofed canvas, like a smelly old tent

without the smell

full.jpg


and it does Not enjoy expulsing that last bit of air at shallow depths when you want precision

when horizontal


Long ago, from the late 70s until around 2000 or so, I often used first a Scubapro wing and then later a Seatec wing, then called a back inflate BC. It was horseshoe shaped and had about 40 pounds of lift. It would taco and definitely fluttered in current. I fixed this to some degree by cutting the center panel out and fabricating a smaller center section and had an awning shop sew it back. I then punched in four small holes down each side and installed stainless grommets and then added a length of bungee that tied to the center section aft and then passed though all four holes on each side. This sucked the wing in and curled it. Worked great.

full.jpg


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha like the space shuttle coming in to land with its boosters still attached!

and that's without the tubular weight system

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
 

Nemrod

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Cosmo, I think you have some good ideas. The Oxy wings are sewn to have a shape when inflated, they are not really round. By the way the panels are cut and sewn you could achieve your triangle shape. I do not like external bungees but internal bungee systems (VDH) I like because they can compact the wing in use and aid with venting. I would like to see some Spectra or Dyneema fabrics used or blended into a wing envelope and maybe without an internal bladder.

View attachment 677462

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha like the space shuttle coming in to land with its boosters still attached!

and that's without the tubular weight system

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Well, in circa 1976 when I was working at a Scubapro shop we did not have a lot of choices at to wings and back plates. I did like the SeaTecs much better when they came along mid-80s as they had an internal bladder which made it easy for me to install a bungee system. And, not only can the center be cut out and made more narrow but they can be split so as to widen the wing for use with double 72s.

I learn from my past but I try not to live in it.

N
 
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The Cosmicist

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If you look at Zeagle wings (which are horseshoe wings) they have fastex clips attaching the outer edge to the waistband to prevent taco-ing... Probably the closest production item to what you're thinking of.

Respectfully,

James

Yeah, I've used a Ranger and there is definitely a lot of thought behind it. Too much material and too much wing for me, though. Feels exactly like its roots... A big parachute rig.

My design... seem to work well for 15 years.
Dive right 60 lb classic first wing I ever bought... dove it with single tank HP 130.
That's what my brother and I came up with..
But now I dive twin LP72 and it is still great. It also helps with air shift.
I know some people hate bungee wings
And usually it's more lift than I need but I love having extra lift sometimes... View attachment 677439

Nothing wrong with DIY! That how we get new designs.

Floating your rig also depends on how big a tank, what weight of plate, and how much extra weight you bolted to the plate. It seems like it’s all the rage and in current fashion to run all your ballast non ditchable on your rig. I personally think this is nuts but there are plenty around here who swear by this new “balanced rig” theory, which in my estimation is a misnomer and not really balanced as I envision balancing to be. To me balanced means the rig is weighted and the diver is weighted to the point where if the two were separated at depth, i.e, removal of your rig at depth to clear an entanglement or other purpose, both the diver and the rig are neutrally buoyant, therefore are considered “balanced”.

If the rig has all the ballast attached then you’ll need a monster wing to float the works.
If the rig does not have all the ballast integrated because the diver is using an actual weightbelt then you can use a smaller wing and even a wing with a narrower inner panel if it works.

You're exactly right. That's my understanding of balanced. Neutrality both (1) buoyancy-wise between the water and you + your rig, and (2) between you and your rig in water. I may actually have to switch to an AL plate even in salt water because of this. With a steel plate, I don't need very much weight in salt water at all. In fresh water, I would need to dive with half a pool noodle haha! If I carried enough weight on my belt to keep me neutral at shallower depths with only my wetsuit, I'd be quite overweight overall.

Yeah I've got those wings, this mono is stiff as a board, even makes stiff board noises
seriously behaves like the deniers have been filled with resin, old canvas diaphragms

That's it, the "cordura" has the qualities of waterproofed canvas, like a smelly old tent

without the smell

View attachment 677461

and it does Not enjoy expulsing that last bit of air at shallow depths when you want precision

when horizontal

Yeah mine is still new and I could literally throw it like a frisbee. That's why I say it's very sturdy and well-made. That thing is tough, but not very supple...

Cosmo, I think you have some good ideas. The Oxy wings are sewn to have a shape when inflated, they are not really round. By the way the panels are cut and sewn you could achieve your triangle shape. I do not like external bungees but internal bungee systems (VDH) I like because they can compact the wing in use and aid with venting. I would like to see some Spectra or Dyneema fabrics used or blended into a wing envelope and maybe without an internal bladder.

N

Ah, thanks. Maybe I'll come up with something worth the time some day. I know nothing about wing design, so don't get your hopes up haha.
 

Rol diy

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My design... seem to work well for 15 years.
Dive right 60 lb classic first wing I ever bought... dove it with single tank HP 130.
That's what my brother and I came up with..
But now I dive twin LP72 and it is still great. It also helps with air shift.
I know some people hate bungee wings
And usually it's more lift than I need but I love having extra lift sometimes... View attachment 677439

Also I have done this to keep the tips of the wing down.
Not totally my idea, but if they can do it for sidemount why can't it be used for a conventional wing. And it works great.
20210819_215851.jpg
20210819_215903.jpg
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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