Wing bladder size and suggestion for backplate/harness system

[Wibble]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I am still quite confused as to which would be better because it seems the opinions are about evenly split.

As far as I understand it seems that in terms of the necessity for the wing to keep me afloat a 30lb wing would be enough however it might struggle to keep my kit afloat without the buoyancy given by me and my suit, right?

One thing to consider is I prefer integrated weights as I’ve always found that weight belts get in the way and keep coming loose on me, would the fact that all my weight is on the rig change things?

The point of a backplate is it's a really simple layout that is pretty much the same regardless of diving singles or doubles.

Ditchable weight is something many divers do not use as it implies an uncontrolled ascent to the surface. That might be fine from 20 feet (7m), but it could kill you from deeper. In your case you've mentioned a lot of lead - 10kg/22lbs. From 40m/130ft you'd be like Polaris/Trident/breaching whale.

In my early diving career -- OW, AOW -- I managed to drop the integrated weights out of my BCD on at least two occasions when handing them up to the boat. I finally forgot them, leaving them behind when doing a shore dive and thankfully someone "found" them. Alas I never "found" the "finder", definitely looser's weepers.

If you've any technical diving aspirations, you will not be using ditchable weight.

I've not used ditchable weights since moving to a backplate -- somewhere around dive 50 many years ago. It really isn't an issue and definitely has the advantage that you don't loose the weight as it's on your rig.

I have a smaller 30lb Halcyon Eclipse single tank wing which I've used a few times in warmer conditions. Whilst I only used a couple or three kg (5 to 7 lbs), the wing could easily float everything if I took it off in the water. However, I'd also keep it on when climbing out of the water up a ladder (yes, a ladder, how quaint that they don't have a dive lift!).

Earlier this year I was diving in Lanzarote on my rebreather. I appreciate that it's not a single open circuit cylinder, but it weighs considerably more than your single -- something like 40kg/88lbs. I could easily climb out of the water up the ladder (struth, no dive lift again!) easily hauling both that rig and my carcass up and out. I ain't no Superman Tonto.

When I dived in the UK off a RIB in a steel 12 litre twinset (think that's US size 105?), we had to remove it in the water and the boat people would drag it up and over the sponsons. This required wriggling out of the harness on the surface and using the wing to float it all. For the twinset I would use a 40lb Halcyon Evolve wing, but this rig is a lot heavier in the water than a single (twice as heavy?!?). No problems with floating it.


So I'll go back to my original point. A backplate + one-piece harness + Halcyon Eclipse 30lb wing + single-tank adapter + 3 or 4 weight pouches on the cylinder is really good. There's no need for more weight. Also in warm water you'll soon get used to a lot less lead.

 

[inquis]

in Scotland I dive with steel 12 with a dry suit a probably need closer to 12 or 13 kg.

Is that frequent? This definitely pushes you to the 40 lb wing IF you have all your lead on the rig. Or you could use the 30 lb wing, and add a weightbelt with the extra bit of lead you need for Scotland dives.

If you don't want to think about it, just get the 40 lb wing.

(In contrast, I use a 20 lb wing with my drysuit because I put most of the lead on a weight belt. The same rig with it's small pockets works for travel/3mm diving as well.)

 

[Giovanni Giuriani]

Is that frequent? This definitely pushes you to the 40 lb wing IF you have all your lead on the rig. Or you could use the 30 lb wing, and add a weightbelt with the extra bit of lead you need for Scotland dives.

If you don't want to think about it, just get the 40 lb.

(In contrast, I use a 20 lb wing with my drysuit because I put most of the lead on a weight belt. The same rig with it's small pockets works for travel/3mm diving as well.)

I live in Scotland and I’ve just started my divemaster so it’ll definitely be quite frequent now. The main question I have about the 40lb would be avoiding too much taco effect and thus not being able to dump the air effectively, and any extra drag.

So it definitely seems like a 30lb would be enough in terms of keeping me afloat. It’s just a matter or whether it can keep itself afloat without me in it.

 

[saxman242]

The main question I have about the 40lb would be avoiding too much taco effect and thus not being able to dump the air effectively, and any extra drag.

I think you're overestimating the size difference between a 30 lbs wing and a 40 lbs wing.


I have a 38 lbs wing and a 22 lbs wing. Even between those two the size difference isn't that big.

 

[inquis]

a 30lb would be enough in terms of keeping me afloat. It’s just a matter or whether it can keep itself afloat without me in it.

Yes, that's the crux of it. From what you've said, you can ballpark your drysuit buoyancy at about +28 lbs (assuming you are neutral at reserve air levels in an empty jacket BC). (This comes from -26 lb lead, -1 lb reserve air, -0.5 lb empty 12 l cylinder, -2 lb regulator, +2 lb guess at an empty BC.)

Putting all of that ballast on the rig in some form (either as lead or part of the plate/cylinder/hardware) simply won't work with a 30 lb wing. It would have to support 35 lbs (28 lb ballast + 7 lbs of air at the start of the dive). However, a pair of 2 kg bricks on a weightbelt solves that problem (should that need arise, e.g., diving from a RIB).

(I should point out that during a dive, your drysuit will be helping, so a 30 lb wing will have LOTS of margin to assist other divers in your role as DM. The 30 lb wing with light kicking would be sufficient to surface in the event of a total drysuit flood -- no need to ditch lead at depth if that happened, although you could if you wanted.)

 

[Giovanni Giuriani]

Yes, that's the crux of it. From what you've said, you can ballpark your drysuit buoyancy at about -28 lbs (assuming you are neutral at reserve air levels in an empty jacket BC). (This comes from -26 lb lead, -1 lb reserve air, -0.5 lb empty 12 l cylinder, -2 lb regulator, +2 lb guess at an empty BC.)

Putting all of that ballast on the rig in some form (either as lead or part of the plate/cylinder/hardware) simply won't work with a 30 lb wing. It would have to support 35 lbs (28 lb ballast + 7 lbs of air at the start of the dive). However, a pair of 2 kg bricks on a weightbelt solves that problem (should that need arise, e.g., diving from a RIB).

(I should point out that during a dive, your drysuit will be helping, so a 30 lb wing will have LOTS of margin to assist other divers in your role as DM. The 30 lb wing with light kicking would be sufficient to surface in the event of a total drysuit flood -- no need to ditch lead at depth if that happened, although you could if you wanted.)

Thanks, I’m glad I got it right. So would you still recommend a 30lb wing with some lead in the weight belt as opposed to a 40lb wing allowing all the lead in the rig (as I have preferred until now)?

 

[inquis]

As is common with such threads, this can be analyzed to the nth degree. As I see it, your choices are

• Get the 40 lb, and then get a 30 if the taco bugs you.
• Get the 30 lb, and then get a 40 if the weight belt bugs you. (Keep the 30 for Mexico or semi-dry dives!)

I do know the integrated weight pockets can be smaller if you use a weight belt. It is easier to climb a ladder after handing up a weight belt (a non-issue if you have access to a lift, though). I don't notice a weightbelt when wearing a drysuit; however, it's YOUR perceptions that matter.

On the flip side, have you seen any other local divers with a larger wing? Just a look at them underwater may sway you. Ideally, you could borrow their rig for a quick dip to see for yourself. Same thing if anyone has a smaller wing.

 

[Wibble]

I live in Scotland and I’ve just started my divemaster so it’ll definitely be quite frequent now.

Won't the dive shop you're doing it with insist that you use the stuff the shop sells, i.e. the BCD with the best margin?!?

In all seriousness, the DM is someone who works for the shop and assisting in various ways, often dive leading. The shops do like to have their DMs in whatever their students are wearing.

 

[-JD-]

Many of the newer single-tank wings are longer rather than (much) wider so taco isn't really much of an issue.

APEKS WTX-40: WING,WTX-D40,SINGLE CYL,APEKS | BCDs

There are also some half-way wings in the 34-35lb lift range so it is not a question of ONLY 30 OR 40 ...

(35) Store | Vintage Double Hose
Here is the VDH 18(left) vs. 35(right):

(35) https://www.diverite.com/products/wings/voyager-series-wings/

(35) ST 35 Wing - Hollis

(34) https://www.mares.com/en_NO/donut-bladder-single-tank-2

 

[Giovanni Giuriani]

Many of the newer single-tank wings are longer rather than (much) wider so taco isn't really much of an issue.

APEKS WTX-40: WING,WTX-D40,SINGLE CYL,APEKS | BCDs

There are also some half-way wings in the 34-35lb lift range so it is not a question of ONLY 30 OR 40 ...

(35) Store | Vintage Double Hose
Here is the VDH 18(left) vs. 35(right):

(35) Voyager Series - Dive Rite

(35) ST 35 Wing - Hollis

(34) Donut Bladder Single Tank | Mares

Thanks, I’m now looking into the Hollis ST35 which seems nice, do you have any experience with any of these?

I was mainly looking at the halcyon wings, that’s why I was considering 30 or 40.