Wing Bladder Material

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ermaclob

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can some one tell me what fabrics or materials are used to make the bladders for most standard dive wings as well as what they are sealed with? ive been throwing some swings at some diy stuff and cant seem to get that particular part right. i guessed initially it was a denier nylon with a urethane coat.
 

Dr Dog

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There is normally an inner bladder made of rubber of some sort. The outer material of my three wings is denier
 
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ermaclob

ermaclob

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There is normally an inner bladder made of rubber of some sort. The outer material of my three wings is denier

my hog wing is mad eof a thin denier that has some really bad A$$ coating of some kind. tho where to get that stuff or what its called IDK? anyone point me in the right direction?
 

ams511

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my hog wing is mad eof a thin denier that has some really bad A$$ coating of some kind. tho where to get that stuff or what its called IDK? anyone point me in the right direction?

If I wasn't moving out of Miami soon I would show you my wing collection. Wings with an inner bladder usually use a urethane material. Some like Oxycheq are really thick will others are less so. Halcyon and now Hog use what you describe, a thin denier with some sort of coating. I haven't a clue where they get it from but you could always ask for a factory tour.

This may be of some help:
Inflatable Fabric Types - Landmark Creations
coated fabrics SEALABLE
http://www.rockywoods.com/Fabrics-Kits
http://www.seattlefabrics.com/
 
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Pao

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Usually a medium denier (400 to 600 or so) nylon for puncture resistance while maintaining flexibility with an inner polyurethane coating. Seams are usually RF welded.
 

tbone1004

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ok let's stop this bad information before it gets worse. I am a textile engineer by profession and do development work with various scuba manufacturers as well as designing bullet proof vests, FR fabrics for aerospace, and structural composites.
Denier is a unit, it defines grams/9000m, and has nothing to do with any sort of fabric other than defining the size of the yarn used to make the fabric, so please do not refer to anything as "denier" because it doesn't mean anything at all. This is equivalent to calling your scuba tank "cubic feet" or "liters", it literally means absolutely nothing in relation to what you're talking about. Every fabric has a "denier" based on the yarn used, so saying denier nylon means absolutely nothing other than some sort of aliphatic polyamide made by the DuPont corporation. Nylon is a tradename for that polymer, similar to Kevlar, Nomex, etc.


Lower denier numbers indicate a thinner and generally lighter fabric, think parachute cloth, vs. canvas, parachute uses very fine denier yarn, canvas uses very large denier yarns. This has nothing to do with durability of the fabric though higher deniers usually have better abrasion resistance because they have more material to wear through *think tires with deeper tread blocks lasting longer than not so deep tread blocks*. The fabric used for outer wing covers are made out of Cordura Nylon in almost all cases. These are SOMETIMES not always coated with an impermeable membrane, usually polyurethane on the inside and they are ultrasonically sewn or RF welded *basically the same end result, slightly different process* to seal the seams, then stitched for durability. Inner bladder materials if used are made with urethane which is a colossal PITA to deal with to actually make an airtight wing. You need very expensive equipment to successfully make a professional looking wing that is truly airtight. You will not be able to get a true airtight seal without using RF welding equipment or ultrasonic sewing machine. You can get close, but not close enough to use for a BCD.

1000D Coated CORDURA® Nylon Fabric
This is the material used for some BC's, it has the impermeable membrane and is available in whatever color you want. The biggest thing will be getting the seams airtight, and I can guarantee that it can't be done reliably without RF welding or ultrasonic bonding which actually melts the two layers together. Very little likes to stick to the polyurethane backing, and if you use a sealant, you will have trouble when you go to stitch it and it will look funky. Not trying to discourage you from DIY, but based on how little you know about the material and how it works, I'm going to assume you won't be able to bond the seams properly and don't want you to have a constantly leaking bladder which is dangerous.
 
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ermaclob

ermaclob

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ok let's stop this bad information before it gets worse. I am a textile engineer by profession and do development work with various scuba manufacturers as well as designing bullet proof vests, FR fabrics for aerospace, and structural composites.
Denier is a unit, it defines grams/9000m, and has nothing to do with any sort of fabric other than defining the size of the yarn used to make the fabric, so please do not refer to anything as "denier" because it doesn't mean anything at all. This is equivalent to calling your scuba tank "cubic feet" or "liters", it literally means absolutely nothing in relation to what you're talking about. Every fabric has a "denier" based on the yarn used, so saying denier nylon means absolutely nothing other than some sort of aliphatic polyamide made by the DuPont corporation. Nylon is a tradename for that polymer, similar to Kevlar, Nomex, etc.


Lower denier numbers indicate a thinner and generally lighter fabric, think parachute cloth, vs. canvas, parachute uses very fine denier yarn, canvas uses very large denier yarns. This has nothing to do with durability of the fabric though higher deniers usually have better abrasion resistance because they have more material to wear through *think tires with deeper tread blocks lasting longer than not so deep tread blocks*. The fabric used for outer wing covers are made out of Cordura Nylon in almost all cases. These are SOMETIMES not always coated with an impermeable membrane, usually polyurethane on the inside and they are ultrasonically sewn or RF welded *basically the same end result, slightly different process* to seal the seams, then stitched for durability. Inner bladder materials if used are made with urethane which is a colossal PITA to deal with to actually make an airtight wing. You need very expensive equipment to successfully make a professional looking wing that is truly airtight. You will not be able to get a true airtight seal without using RF welding equipment or ultrasonic sewing machine. You can get close, but not close enough to use for a BCD.

1000D Coated CORDURA® Nylon Fabric
This is the material used for some BC's, it has the impermeable membrane and is available in whatever color you want. The biggest thing will be getting the seams airtight, and I can guarantee that it can't be done reliably without RF welding or ultrasonic bonding which actually melts the two layers together. Very little likes to stick to the polyurethane backing, and if you use a sealant, you will have trouble when you go to stitch it and it will look funky. Not trying to discourage you from DIY, but based on how little you know about the material and how it works, I'm going to assume you won't be able to bond the seams properly and don't want you to have a constantly leaking bladder which is dangerous.

Haha its funny that Ive know about denier being a type of unit tho it just seems like the norm for me to describe those Cordura nylon fabrics as "denier" ignorance is bliss i guess. Your also right about the seams. Ive slowly come to realize this as ive been doing some research as well as the results from my tinkering . iv made my bladders pretty much like how you would make a dry suit sealant adhesive + lots of heavy stitching and adhesive sealant to make it air tight / strong. so far i can pump em till the dump valve gives, tho i question there longevity.
 

tbone1004

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Like I said, you can make it air tight, but the question is for how long and how pretty is it going to look. DIY gear is only effective if it is either drastically cheaper and just as functional as the professional stuff, or if it is marginally cheaper and looks just as good. In this case, it'll be not quite as good looking and realistically not a whole lot cheaper. Either way, the material I linked is the right stuff, if you think it is too heavy looking, you can use lower denier fabric which will just be tighter weave and a bit more flexible, at this point it is purely aesthetic. 1000D will look closer to some of the heavier duty wing fabrics or drysuit skid panels on knees/butt, lighter denier closer to drysuit material. FWIW DiveRite uses 210D nylon for inner bladder and 1680D ballistic cordura for the wing covers.

Fun fact, Denier is based off of the fact that a silk worm's silk is nominally 9000 meters at 1 gram. Gotta love the imperial system.
 

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