Widow sues medical doctor and training company

[Stoo]

This was partly my point as well, the Dentist (Dr.) certainly had more medical knowledge than the LDS/instructors and was intimate with his own health status. The LDS/instructors are in no position to make that evaluation and who defer medical status to the student's own doctor. The doctor is to determine if the student is allowed to receive training based on his/her medical profile.

I think this is where I disagree... Presumably you are correct in that the Dentist would know his health status, but he may not necessarily be aware of how that might affect his ability to dive. I go back to my earlier comment about a discussion I had years ago with my family doctor, who presumably has significantly more medical training than a dentist. He had very little knowledge about how certain medical conditions could relate to someones ability to dive. Mind you, when I gave him the short version of SCUBA Medicine 101, he very quickly understood what I was talking about. It just wasn't something that had been on his radar.

As for the LDS/Instructor making the call, I suspect that a well educated, experienced instructor could easily make that call, but would defer to a Doctor for the final word. I can recall many times explaining to new students that some medical condition that they had precluded them from taking up diving... Up to and including extremely obesity. I simply wasn't prepared to put a student's life at risk, nor was I willing to incur additional liability. I also "disallowed" near non-swimmers from beginning a course. I don't think that I was a bad person for doing it... I was merely putting the potential student's well-being above my "business". I can't recall anyone of these maybe 10 or 12 people EVER coming back armed with some argument as to why I should change my opinion. To the best of my knowledge, none of them ever went across town to took a course either. I was always careful and compassionate about their situation, and where appropriate, I would offer a solution... learn to swim, lose weight etc. I was also firm though, and obviously a medical problem can't generally be worked away...

 

[JonTNY]

Class 1 Poop show in my backyard. WTF ever happened to personal responsibility?

Personal responsibility was loosing favor in the 80's, was severely compromised by the late 90's and is dead today. There is some positive news though, today everyone has convinced themselves that they are in fact living in the center of their own special world! A world where everyone is a unique beautiful snowflake accompanied by a sense of entitlement that transcends the boundaries of arrogance.

 

[undrwater]

Personal responsibility was loosing favor in the 80's, was severely compromised by the late 90's and is dead today. There is some positive news though, today everyone has convinced themselves that they are in fact living in the center of their own special world! A world where everyone is a unique beautiful snowflake accompanied by a sense of entitlement that transcends the boundaries of arrogance.

Yes. It's all their fault isn't it. You have no "personal responsibility" for anything.

They too will have some special meme for the next generation and ask the same question:

"Why can't they be like we were? Perfect in every way!"

 

[yle]

Interesting thread, but it seems the facts are pretty simple and both the doctor and the shop will likely settle out of court.

1. The doctor had a responsibility to read the additional pages of the medical statement before signing it. According to the article, it's a "fact" that he didn't read those additional pages, which should have been provided to him. If they weren't provided, he had a responsibility to ask for them so he could make an informed decision on the patient's risks. According to the article, the doctor appears to have failed this responsibility.

2. The instructor had a responsibility to stay with his student. They don't specify which agency the instructor is with, but my agency's standards include staying with my OW students at all times while in the water. I assume all agencies have a similar standard. Regardless of what actually happened on the fatal dive (whether or not the student was actually out of air, what regulator was out of control, etc) the article claims that the instructor was separated from the student and had to "swim back down to grab Burns." If this is true, the instructor violated standards.

Of course the article could have the facts twisted up, and it's pretty obvious that some of what is reported makes no sense (e.g. it claims the doctor that signed the medical did two uneventful dives... but this was probably just a typo and the editor was on vacation.) But if it can be shown that the doctor and instructor failed at their respective responsibilities (doctor to make an informed decision, instructor to stay with their student), then they'll likely both be found liable to some degree.

Should the student be assigned some responsibility in this? Sure... but that doesn't change the fact that both the doctor and the instructor appear to have failed their respective responsibilities.

There's an important lesson for instructors here: do not violate standards. If you stay within standards and something goes wrong, it's much easier to defend your actions in court. If you violate standards and something goes wrong, it's very difficult to defend your actions in court.

 

[Jack Hammer]

A Dentist is a Doctor. The Doctor referred to making dives in the article would be the deceased.

 

[Wookie]

A Dentist is a Doctor. The Doctor referred to making dives in the article would be the deceased.

I've tried to follow along. Do I have this right? A doctor decides to learn to dive. He has asthma. He takes his medical release to his buddy the dentist and says "sign this", which the dentist does.

The dive shop accepts this medical without question knowing that the doctor-student is using his inhaler. On OW3 something happens and the doctor-student dies.

Am I close?

 

[yle]

I've tried to follow along. Do I have this right? A doctor decides to learn to dive. He has asthma. He takes his medical release to his buddy the dentist and says "sign this", which the dentist does.

Am I close?

I'm pretty sure the deceased student was a dentist. He took his medical to a physician and the physician signed it. That's what I think I read in the article.

 

[yle]

A Dentist is a Doctor. The Doctor referred to making dives in the article would be the deceased.

I won't debate semantics with you here. Yes, physicians, dentists and professors are all "doctors." Let me explain my reference to the "doctor" doing two dives, as stated in the article.

Per the article:

Burns was a dentist. He became a scuba student.

Neumann is a physician. He signed the medical statement for Burns.

The article then states that:

"Neumann began his open water certification in Washington with Mike Laharty, of Salem Scuba, as his instructor. They completed two uneventful dives that day."

And two days later they said that Burns did this third (and last) dive.

My point was that the article probably made a mistake (as others before me pointed out) and meant to state that Burns did those first two dives.

And yes, they are all doctors. Even dentists.

 

[Wookie]

Looks like it wasn't an OW certification dive, but a deep dive for advanced.

Either way, I think both the malpractice insurance company as well as V&B need to settle this one as quickly and inexpensively as possible.

 

[yle]

Looks like it wasn't an OW certification dive, but a deep dive for advanced.

I'm thinking it was probably a 60 ft dive for the third dive of the OW class. I do the same thing with my students: 60 ft is the max depth allowed for dives 3 and 4.

A couple years ago PADI made a change to the OW class. Previously if you were OW certified your depth limit was 60 feet. I think they found too many students doing 20 ft dives in the OW class, being handed a card and told they were now qualified to go to 60 feet. So the new rule for PADI OW divers is they are qualified to dive as deep as they dived in their OW class... which can be a max of 60 feet.

Either way, I think both the malpractice insurance company as well as V&B need to settle this one as quickly and inexpensively as possible.

Agreed. The doctor and instructor didn't cause the guy's death, but according to the article it appears they were a bit lax on their responsibilities.

I wonder if this will make non-scuba knowledgeable doctors more hesitant to sign medicals in the future...