Why YOU should take DIR-F (Fundies)...

[GreenDiverDown]

OK... maybe my comments ARE related to the subject of Peter's thread.

In fact, as great is DIRF is, there are some things that even it can't offer that would be of benefit to a diver planning on cave training.

Experience
Maturity
Natural athleticism
Attitude
Leadership
Situational awareness
Buddy communication, understanding, anticipation, etc.
Knowledge of your inner self (and your buddy's), phobias, strengths and weaknesses, stresses and reaction to those stresses
Physical fitness
Calm under fire
Cave comfort, knowledge, and the ability to 'see' the cave


and...
Experience

 

[TSandM]

Thanks for expanding on your post, Steven.

You're right, all of those things would be useful in a cave, but with the exception of situational awareness and buddy communication (both of which ARE considered in Fundies, although they have to be developed over time) none of them is something you can get from a class. Only from time, and we all need that to become better divers!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Takes more than time, Lynne ... also takes a desire to work on those things.

I know some folks with thousands of dives I wouldn't trust inside a cave ... hell, some of them I barely trust in Cove 2. What they have in common is an attitude that they've learned all they'll ever need to know ... which usually came right after their last class, whenever that happened to be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Thanks for expanding on your post, Steven.

You're right, all of those things would be useful in a cave, but with the exception of situational awareness and buddy communication (both of which ARE considered in Fundies, although they have to be developed over time) none of them is something you can get from a class. Only from time, and we all need that to become better divers!

Not useful... Necessary!

Actually, there are several others that are CONSIDERED in fundies. Nevertheless, you don't get these things from DIRF... or any class for that matter. (Actually, I suppose you could make a case for mastering SOME of these things in higher level courses... or at least, along the journey.)

School of hard knocks... spend a few years there before venturing into caves.

 

[matts1w]

OK... maybe my comments ARE related to the subject of Peter's thread.

Experience
Maturity
Natural athleticism
Attitude
Leadership
Situational awareness
Buddy communication, understanding, anticipation, etc.
Knowledge of your inner self (and your buddy's), phobias, strengths and weaknesses, stresses and reaction to those stresses
Physical fitness
Calm under fire
Cave comfort, knowledge, and the ability to 'see' the cave


and...
Experience

What about cave experience period? As in a dry cave and learning how to truly spilunk. I remember talking to a very well know cave diver/owner of HUGE gear company and his then 13 year old son while on a liveaboard. I remember him saying there was no way his son would start cavern training until he demonstrated mastery of dry cave exploration. That made lots of sense to me, but is never really discussed here. Curious as to what you guys think.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Takes more than time, Lynne ... also takes a desire to work on those things.

I know some folks with thousands of dives I wouldn't trust inside a cave ... hell, some of them I barely trust in Cove 2. What they have in common is an attitude that they've learned all they'll ever need to know ... which usually came right after their last class, whenever that happened to be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think Bob's right on target. So much of safe caving (or anything for that matter) is attitude.

He also pointed out what I believe to be one of the most dangerous things about DIR training.... thinking that one's invinsible because they've had world class training. It really isn't a fault of DIR... or GUE... or any particular instructor. It's just an attitude that SOME people have. It's more about who they are than what they were taught.

It's also at least partially a result of all the hoopla that surrounds DIR... all the clamor that we witness here on this board.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

What about cave experience period? As in a dry cave and learning how to truly spilunk. I remember talking to a very well know cave diver/owner of HUGE gear company and his then 13 year old son while on a liveaboard. I remember him saying there was no way his son would start cavern training until he demonstrated mastery of dry cave exploration. That made lots of sense to me, but is never really discussed here. Curious as to what you guys think.

Bravo!

That's precisely one of the things I'm talking about. How else can you get a feel for caving or learn how to 'see' a cave before slipping under the water.

 

[dsteding]

He also pointed out what I believe to be one of the most dangerous things about DIR training.... thinking that one's invinsible because they've had world class training. It really isn't a fault of DIR... or GUE... or any particular instructor. It's just an attitude that SOME people have. It's more about who they are than what they were taught.

Of the 40-50 odd GUE trained divers I've interacted with, I've NEVER ran across this attitude. Not saying it doesn't exist somewhere, just that I've not seen it.

I have, however, seen it in plenty of people trained by other agencies. I don't want to turn this into agency bashing, but I think the root of the difference is that GUE discourages progression in training-almost holds you back out of an abundence of caution and a conservative attitude, perhaps to a fault.

 

[CompuDude]

Well I am glad it worked out well for you. That seems to be the case more often than not. Either that or the annoyed and frustrated students do not post here!

It may be that the old saw "it's the instructor and not the agency" is as true of GUE-F as it is of any other class.

I agree with TS&M... while it's certain that every instructor has his or her own style, and it's also certain that there will be at least some differences among GUE instructors as to their ability to teach, in my limited experience, and from what I've read, GUE instructors tend to be among the best of the best. (Note that I said "among"... there are definitely non-GUE instructors out there who are equally as good.)

That said, TS&M's point about teaching styles and students needing to mesh are well taken. An instructor can be great and still have a personality conflict with, or a teach style that meshes poorly with an individual student's learning needs. One hopes that is a rare exception to the rule... and given the number of positive reports to negative reports that I've read (and heard first hand), I'm inclined to think this is the case.

I'm sorry you felt the way you did about your class. That certainly wasn't my experience.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

I have, however, seen it in plenty of people trained by other agencies. I don't want to turn this into agency bashing, but I think the root of the difference is that GUE discourages progression in training-almost holds you back out of an abundence of caution and a conservative attitude, perhaps to a fault.

I've seen it... but you're right... it probably isn't an agency thing... or even a DIR thing... it's about some people's attitude... or personality... and how advanced training can really get 'em rolling! They finish a whatever course and suddenly they're God's gift to diving.