Why the long...................hose?

[Bob DBF]

These discussions happen all the time here. I think that it's kind of a straw man to respond to a gear optimization suggestion with a recommendation for better training.

Suggesting that the divers in the OP, who have issues using their own gear, switch to gear they are not farmiliar with will solve their problem is within the straw man argument, as well. Regardless of the gear, sooner or later they need to learn to use it effectively.


Bob

 

[Scubamat]

OK I'm only newbie but did take serious look at recently while choosing my first set of gear. The issue with regulator/inflator combos is they are sold as a way to replace the octo and reduce your hose count. Noone one is teaching these people how this setup affects the rest of your equipment choices, or how you actually use it in an emergency. They are not practicing how to use it.

They are being sold to mostly new divers on the marketing without the downside or the critical equipment decisions explained.

I dive a traditional setup I don't care what you use as long a whichever regulator I'm grabbing(or your donating) in am emergency is highly visible (bright yellow) and on a long enough hose to get to my mouth easily.

 

[dberry]

I dive a traditional setup I don't care what you use as long a whichever regulator I'm grabbing(or your donating) in am emergency is highly visible (bright yellow) and on a long enough hose to get to my mouth easily.

That is part of my point about pairing with an instabuddy - most long hose divers don't use a distinguishing color for either 2nd stage regulator. I'm not suggesting they should, but it is something many OW divers would expect. So, it's important to review that in the pre-dive discussion.

 

[NYCNaiad]

3. The octo/inflators I have used, other than the Sherwood Shadow, used a cord to pull the shoulder dump open so one does not have to remove the reg.

Agreed. I always use my dump valves in calm situations so for me there would be no difference in an emergency situation.

For example, one of the reasons I don't like the combined Octo/Inflator things is that proponents always talk about how it's fine because they practice with it and discuss it with their buddies ahead of time, that you can pull the hose to dump instead of using the valve, etc.. As opposed to just having an extra second stage that is exactly like the second stage that you were diving with, and that you can just stick in your mouth or your buddy's mouth and breath from like every other underwater breath that you ever took. So in case you or the diver you are rescuing doesn't have perfect skills in case of an emergency, there is one less thing to worry about.

I'm not sure I understand your point here...? I have one of those combos. There's no difference between how I breathe it & how I breathe any other reg. So if a diver took either one from me or I gave either one to someone else, they still breathe the same.

 

[decompression]

Out of curiosity, how do you guys make that sign? What we do in my little circle of friends is to use a sign with one hand flat, palm up and the other hand using the first two fingers bent and touching the palm of the first hand.

You used to see this sign being used to indicate to students in a pool to go to the knees but it's clear as an anchor sign too. We decided on this because the ASL gesture for anchor involves using two hands and the bent fingers as well. The ASL gesture also involves a long arm motion, which we decided to eliminate by using the upturned palm as a reference.

So what do you use?

Point your hand like a gun, pointer finger out, thumb up and the rest tucked in. Means let's return to the upline/anchor.

R..

Point your hand like a gun, pointer finger out, thumb up and the rest tucked in. Means let's return to the upline/anchor.

 

[boulderjohn]

I'm not seeing where 56% of accidents involved an OOG situation. In fact, according to section 3.7.2 (pg 30) it reports that only 13% of fatalities were due to being out of breathing gas, and a number of those seem to be due to extenuating circumstances (entrapment, cave, rebreather fault, etc.). If you could point me to the section where it mentions 56%, or really any number other than the one I found, I'd appreciate it. I feel like I missed something somewhere.

I think there were some shortcuts taken in summarizing incidents. Here is my understanding, although I don't have any actual percentages.

By far, the highest percentage of fatalities are caused by medical issues, mostly cardiac-related.

Next, you have some fatalities that are caused by very unusual circumstances.

Now, take all of those out of the statistics, and what you have left is the number of fatalities that are related to diver error. Of all cases in which divers screwed up, it is my understanding that the most common factor is a drowning following an an air embolism following a panicked ascent to the surface following an OOA situation.

 

[2airishuman]

Seems like you'd take it out of your mouth to exhaust, then replace. I agree it's apt to be more cumbersome to deal with (I use one) in an air-sharing situation, but that's a trade-off for not having a separate hose & 2nd stage to deal with the rest of the time.

I've experimented with them and gone back to a bungeed secondary. Integrated octo/inflators are designed to work with BCs with shoulder dumps and it is customary to use the shoulder dump, only, and not the dump on the integrated inflator. That way the same procedure can be followed for controlling ascent while sharing air. I think they are fine when used in the configuration they're intended for, that is, a BC with a shoulder dump, and a diver trained to use the shoulder dump.

That brings up a question. I've never used, or tried to use, a 7' long hose setup. I don't think most OW students get trained with that, and I suspect those who do probably have better-than-average instructors. So, let's say for sake of argument the long hose style arrangement suddenly became standard agency practice for, oh, say, SSI or PADI. What are the odds mainstream-trained newbies would find a way to screw it up in real world OOA scenarios? Would it really cut down on badly handled OOA situations?

I started out with a 7' hose when I was new. The main problem with it for new divers is that the hose is difficult to manage for people who are new to diving, and can become a distraction if it isn't looped and tucked properly at the beginning of the dive. With experience it becomes routine to fix this, and it becomes routine to get it right before splashing, but it's hard for people who haven't developed the skills.

[/QUOTE]

I don't necessarily think it even needs to be a "long" hose, more so a longer hose and primary donate. A bungee'd second and the primary on say, a 40" hose routed under the arm with a "right" angle adapter is super streamlined, and works very well for primary donate in the OW environment. It offers enough separation once you swipe the hose over your shoulder, it's easy to donate, there's no need to fumble for anything.

I agree with this, and it is the way I dive on most dives. I only use a 7' hose when I'm diving a twinset.

OK I'm only newbie but did take serious look at recently while choosing my first set of gear. The issue with regulator/inflator combos is they are sold as a way to replace the octo and reduce your hose count. Noone one is teaching these people how this setup affects the rest of your equipment choices, or how you actually use it in an emergency. They are not practicing how to use it.

They are being sold to mostly new divers on the marketing without the downside or the critical equipment decisions explained.

There are some shops where the Air2 is all they sell and all they dive. They never use gear set up any other way and therefore have difficulty imagining why anyone would have a problem with it.

I don't think that the integrated inflators are any worse than the traditional octo they replace. There aren't any statistics to show that they pose hazards that a regular octo does not. The bungeed secondary isn't widely used outside tech despite being superior to both.

I think there were some shortcuts taken in summarizing incidents. Here is my understanding, although I don't have any actual percentages.

By far, the highest percentage of fatalities are caused by medical issues, mostly cardiac-related.

Next, you have some fatalities that are caused by very unusual circumstances.

Now, take all of those out of the statistics, and what you have left is the number of fatalities that are related to diver error. Of all cases in which divers screwed up, it is my understanding that the most common factor is a drowning following an an air embolism following a panicked ascent to the surface following an OOA situation.

I don't know what to believe anymore because in so many cases the interpretation of the facts of the accident involves many judgment calls. You can see whatever you want to see in the data.

 

[doctormike]

Suggesting that the divers in the OP, who have issues using their own gear, switch to gear they are not farmiliar with will solve their problem is within the straw man argument, as well. Regardless of the gear, sooner or later they need to learn to use it effectively.


Bob

You can start another thread about that if you like. I agree with you, that there is never any excuse for running OOG, and redundant gas supplies are only for catastrophic gas loss due to equipment failure. But that's not the point of the thread.

The OP started THIS thread to discuss how a specific equipment combination seemed (to the person who actually witnessed the incident) to have caused some equipment specific problems that he feels would be addressed by a different piece of kit.

Now, you can agree with that, or you can disagree with that. Obviously, anyone using a new gear configuration has to learn how to use it. So it's not like since they had a problem with the gear they had, they wouldn't be able to use any other gear. I don't mean to put words in the OP's mouth, but it seemed like he was saying that his observation was of gear specific issues and he offered a solution.

 

[decompression]

You can start another thread about that if you like. I agree with you, that there is never any excuse for running OOG, and redundant gas supplies are only for catastrophic gas loss due to equipment failure. But that's not the point of the thread.

The OP started THIS thread to discuss how a specific equipment combination seemed (to the person who actually witnessed the incident) to have caused some equipment specific problems that he feels would be addressed by a different piece of kit.

Now, you can agree with that, or you can disagree with that. Obviously, anyone using a new gear configuration has to learn how to use it. So it's not like since they had a problem with the gear they had, they wouldn't be able to use any other gear. I don't mean to put words in the OP's mouth, but it seemed like he was saying that his observation was of gear specific issues and he offered a solution.

That works for me..

 

[kelemvor]

3. A streamlined octo/inflator works great until you need to use it. Tough to exhaust when it's in your mouth.

Pull dump.

But yes, if you're only configured with part of the solution - things might become difficult.

I prefer pull or butt dump anyway, and rarely use the exhaust on the end of my power inflator.