Why Recreational Triox ??

[DepartureDiver]

Since the only place the gas makes sense is between 100-130' for nearly all divers, does it not make sense to certify someone for its use only if they can demonstrate the effective use of the equipment needed to safely use the gas?

Would you issue a full Trimix cert to someone who could not perform decompression diving and did not know how to handle doubles or a deco bottle?

If you'd issue this on the basis of it being a "gas cert", then I should be able to get a full Trimix card on the same basis.

My understanding was the Rec-Triox class was not a decompression procedure class and that while not all may agree, the 30/30 was being used shallower than 100', thus it is a depth and gas management issue. But I understand your point regarding the gas management.

 

[cornfed]

Since the only place the gas makes sense is between 100-130' for nearly all divers, does it not make sense to certify someone for its use only if they can demonstrate the effective use of the equipment needed to safely use the gas?

I think it was demonstrated in an earlier post that you can safely (based on gas requirements) dive to these depths on a single tank.

Would you issue a full Trimix cert to someone who could not perform decompression diving and did not know how to handle doubles or a deco bottle?

If you'd issue this on the basis of it being a "gas cert", then I should be able to get a full Trimix card on the same basis.

That's not the case here at all.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sure - - but let's first make sure that we have an actual problem, and that the claimed "Solution" actually produces a benefit.

The basic scientific process to do this is:

1. Theoretically predict the current CO2 retention level.
2. Theoretically predict the Triox CO2 retention level.
3. Quantitatively measure and validate (1) through testing.
4. Quantitatively measure and validate (2) through testing.
5. Quantitatively measure the CO2 dose-response curve.
6. Determine if (3 --> 4) produces a significant change on (5).
7. If 6=FALSE, then STOP (eg, no realizable benefit).


MHK has gotten as far as Step #2...but no further.
Until Step #6 is completed, its an unsubstantiated claim.

YMMV on how irresponsible it is to knowingly make unsubstantiated claims.


-hh

Does that mean that you're not going to take the class?

The value in diving helium is best illustrated by diving it. The fact that MANY people are finding that they feel better both during a dive and after when using trimix is substantiation of benefit. The fact that we can't yet describe it with an equation doesn't really matter. Divers who at one time only used helium for deep dives are finding they like it at shallower depths too.

Passing this class or one of the other recreational classes available from other agencies gives the diver the choice to dive it if they want.

Other people will wait for an equation though.

 

[DeepScuba]

I guess Mike, that what they're saying is the GUE and others are pushing a class that is of limitted value to divers.

Is it wrong? PADI doesn't think so.

It might be nice to have @ 100ft, but I ain't wasting the money.

Since when did we become so lame we couldn't manage to stay clear headed and easy breathing at 100ft?

c'mon, lets deal with a real problem for a change.

Besides, with all respect MHK, have you ever been wrong?

Didn't think so. Why these guys try to tell you otherwise is beyond me.

I like ya man, but take a look at what you're saying sometimes. HEY I love your attitude and demeanor, it's great, but it's the message that counts too.

And yeah I respect you and your accomplishments, but there's some questionable holes that these guy are putting in that Superman suit of yours.

I'd stay silent too, just incase they're right

Have fun kids.

 

[DepartureDiver]

I think this has been discussed pretty thoroughly. Oxygen enriched gasses have a place and are taught to recreational divers. There is no reason to not teach helium based gases to recreational divers. It is better than them diving to 130’ on air and there is a benefit shallower than this (even though the depth can be debated). It is a good idea to get divers to plan their dive responsibly and to learn there are benefits to helium and that you don’t have to be a decompression diver (sorry Mike … only word I can come up with) to benefit from it. It is now up to them as to when to use it. Divers are going to go to 130’ on a single tank anyway and I’m sure the Rec-Triox class teaches about gas management and the benefit of a different setup than the standard AL80 recreational divers often use.

I believe there is nothing wrong in recreational teaching divers about helium. But to start another philosophical debate. Are divers feeling better after diving with helium because of the helium or because they have learned how to dive a better profile?

 

[detroit diver]

I guess Mike, that what they're saying is the GUE and others are pushing a class that is of limitted value to divers.

Is it wrong? PADI doesn't think so.

It might be nice to have @ 100ft, but I ain't wasting the money.

Since when did we become so lame we couldn't manage to stay clear headed and easy breathing at 100ft?

c'mon, lets deal with a real problem for a change.

Besides, with all respect MHK, have you ever been wrong?

Didn't think so. Why these guys try to tell you otherwise is beyond me.

I like ya man, but take a look at what you're saying sometimes. HEY I love your attitude and demeanor, it's great, but it's the message that counts too.

And yeah I respect you and your accomplishments, but there's some questionable holes that these guy are putting in that Superman suit of yours.

I'd stay silent too, just incase they're right

Have fun kids.

Limited value to SOME divers. To others, it is of great value. I think we know which camp you are in.

PADI? Now there's a good example. Yelled and screamed about nitrox also when it was introduced. Only they can't jump on this bandwagon because they've never taught anyone the skills of bouyancy.

Don't waste your money on helium. That will leave more for the rest of us that want to use it. It'll be cheaper too. Actually, it's pretty cheap now if you do it yourself.

I'll take the class any day from MHK. I've never been led wrong with anything that he and GUE have taught. Yeah, kool aid, religion, cult, blah blah blah. Skip it-we've heard it.

You must be one of those deep air divers, eh?

 

[detroit diver]

I think this has been discussed pretty thoroughly. Oxygen enriched gasses have a place and are taught to recreational divers. There is no reason to not teach helium based gases to recreational divers. It is better than them diving to 130’ on air and there is a benefit shallower than this (even though the depth can be debated). It is a good idea to getting divers to plan their dive responsibly and to learn there are benefits to helium and that you don’t have to be a decompression diver (sorry Mike … only work I can come up with) to benefit from it. It is now up to them as to when to use it. Divers are going to go to 130’ on a single tank anyway and I’m sure the Rec-Triox class teaches about gas management and the benefit of a different setup than the standard AL80 recreational divers are used to.

I believe there is nothing wrong in recreational teaching divers about helium. But to start another philosophical debate. Are divers feeling better after diving with helium because of the helium or because they have learned how to dive a better profile?

Good question, and my guess would be that it is a combination of both.

The helium replacing the nitrogen has to be a beginning, even for those that dive lousy profiles.

If you offgas properly in addition to using the helium, then the benefits have to be compounded.

 

[Big-t-2538]

But to start another philosophical debate. Are divers feeling better after diving with helium because of the helium or because they have learned how to dive a better profile?

Well, I used to think the exact same thing about Nitrox....then I went and took fundys this summer and began seriously adjusting my ascents. We implemented those ascents in our wreck dives in the Straits in August on air. Wow...the difference in feeling was tremendous just by making deeper stops and extending our ascent rate from 20 feet. I don't know what effect Helium would have added to those dives.

I believe the idea of Triox here is to get the diver introduced to Helium based mixes, and understand that there are benefits to diving helium...just like there are benefits to diving Enriched Air. This isn't a deco procedures course, though I think the concepts of deco and deco theory are covered. This isn't a "Full Trimix Cert" it is an education on Helium based diving....much like all the other agencies teach something called Nitrox...which is a class focused on Oxygen Enriched diving. Do they hand out "Full-Nitrox-Deco-Certs" for learning to dive with an elevated amount of oxygen....no....they educate people on the benefits and dangers of such mixtures and the corresponding effect on divers. The benefits of helium are documented for deeper dives, why not apply some of those benefits to a range where some people (Wienke for one) say there is a benefit?

 

[DeepScuba]

I should clarify for those non-thinking divers. I won't waste my $$$ on Helium for depths less than 100 ft.

And I should say, after the post last night, that this is MHK's pony, and he's allowed to ride it any way he pleases. If a half dozen guys don't like it, they don't have to watch him ride.

And that's OK with me.

 

[Big-t-2538]

I should clarify for those non-thinking divers. I won't waste my $$$ on Helium for depths less than 100 ft.

I guess the response to that would be....do you waste your money on Nitrox for depths less than 40 feet? I don't...just because I have the tool doesn't mean I'm going to use it on every one of my dives.

No one is forcing you to dive helium at a certain depth once you have the education and background presented in a class....it is simply another tool you have in your diving toolbox. You learn to make intelligent decisions about your diving.

Yes, you might have to plan and dive a helium mix on the last 2 dives in the class for the certification, just like many agencies and instructors force you to plan and dive a Nitrox mix for certification. After that, how you use it is up to you.