Why no redundancy in mainstream rec scuba?

[RayfromTX]

As for a spare air, that is simply a good way to experience running out of air twice on the same dive.

You owe me a new keyboard

 

[TMHeimer]

I tend to agree, however it is not because they fail to encourage divers to carry more gear.

OW is to train a diver how to dive with a buddy, within the limits of NDL. It should also train the diver to use good judgment while making these dives.

If one is trained properly for OW diving, none of the redundant equipment is needed, as the buddy is the redundant equipment. In the case of separation, both divers surface, the closest redundant air, and either continue or end the dive, or start emergency procedures.

These procedures worked before the advent of the safety gear we have now (SPG, BC, and redundant second stage), which makes it easier to avoid problems and perform emergency procedures. If one was not properly trained, it is time to remediate the training, not add equipment thinking that gear is what makes you safe.

That being said, I believe that every diver should set up their kit the way they want. It would flag my attention is someone came on a benign warm water rec dive dressed to make a deep/deco dive in zero vis. I would not see a problem with it, unless I was made to dive with him, then we'd have to talk. Of course I always talk to divers I buddy with, as should everyone, but I would have to find out what that particular diver was planning to do with all the gear.

Bob

 

[TMHeimer]

I agree with all your points Bob, and as well may be curious about that over-kitted up buddy in such benign conditions. Of course this does get into the old "instabuddy" discussion for people boarding a charter alone. Makes sense to be as redundant as you see fit. In case you get paired with the dope. I only take a charter maybe once yearly and should be a bit more fussy myself.
I too, talk with my buddy on the boat before the dive and have been fortunate so far to not have run into the dope. What if you do? Not dive and ask for a refund? Or a different buddy--"Sorry, it's just you two left". Just supposing.

 

[REVAN]

Why would I want to do this? I go underwater to see things.

I don't know why you would do this. But, if I unrecoverably lose my mask on a dive, I'll just call the dive. I don't need to continue sight seeing after the mask is lost on a dive at depth. I can get my spare mask from my gear bag for the next dive, but I don't feel a need to carry it with me as a contingency for the incredibly rare possibility of losing a mask at depth (I think most that are lost, are lost at the surface).

If you are asking why some freedivers dive without a mask, it's because they aren't diving to look around. They are diving to look within. Also, masks impose limitations on one's ability to equalize at depth. It's easier to dive without it and just use a nose clip instead. None of the really deep freedivers use a mask.

 

[MargaritaMike]

When I was first certified I had a manual bottom timer and depth gauge. Now I can't dive with at least five batteries. I already have more than I need. I'm not about to add more to the mix.

I understand that. Last week I was staging my gear for my next dive trip. Part of my process is to check batteries. I spent almost 30 minutes looking for the battery compartment on my SMB. I finally just gave up thinking "I hope it doesn't fail during a dive".

Cheers - M²

 

[Random Dude]

I'm a very new diver, but I already see the appeal in redundant air for dives to deeper depths.

As I have no permanent dive buddy, my experience with relying on your buddy for redundancy hasn't been very good.

On one dive, my insta-buddy thinks he's experienced as he is AOW, and was unwilling to go through predive checks with me.
Once under the surface, I had trouble locating the buddy as he was all over the place, disappearing whenever he deems fit to check out a critter, suddenly appearing behind, on top, or below of me whenever he pleases. Wasn't too nice of a dive, as I took more time seeking out my buddy rather than interesting things in the water.

On another dive in a freshwater lake with bad visibility (2 meters at most) where we had to follow guidelines, the DM just went on leading the dive, leaving me to follow him on my own. The DM even left the guideline without signalling to me at some point, leaving me rushing after him, and finally resorting to holding on to his tank to avoid losing my buddy.

Therefore, in cases like this, I just can't see the safety factor in treating your buddy as your redundancy option, and as such would rather carry an extra pony bottle just to be on the safe side.

But all in all, I too agree that the circumstances of the dive and the acceptable amount of risk for the diver himself would dictate his own equipment configuration, and shouldn't be criticised overly unless it presents a huge amount of risk that the diver is plainly unprepared to deal with.

 

[chrisch]

I regard every dive as a solo dive as far as my personal safety is concerned, because in practical terms with most “buddies” that is exactly what it is. My safety is My responsibility!

Having redundancy of essential equipment, and keeping up the necessary skills in finding/using it allows me to have a peace of mind that I can deal with any foreseeable situation “down there” without breaking a sweat, and as far as I’m concerned that’s the way it should be.
Ive been diving since the early 70’s and remember well the minimalistic approach we had then- “J” valves included. The training I completed as a teenager bordered on militaristic with giant strides from 20 ft and multiple equipment free ascent scenarios then dive back down to re-don on every session. I wouldn’t say that is particularly fun or even safe, but it was confidence inspiring for the types of dives we typically did back then with an average depth of maybe 40 to 60 ft.

I understand the resistance by many these days to what they may see as increasing the complexity of training and equipment required for rec dives! But the reality is that these “rec” dives that I see conducted around the Caribbean and there-about are routinely at depths of 100 ft plus (often 120 ft plus) with an almost alpinist approach to equipment and divers who have minimal experience (IMO) who have certainly never practiced equipment failure drills at these depths, or maybe ever since their OW or AOW course.
The inherent reliability of modern scuba gear, in particular regulators, has lead to a level of complacency- naaaah, it’ll never happen! And maybe it won’t, if your lucky. But it only has to happen once and most people are simply not prepared for a first stage failure, blocked K valve tube, LP hose blow out, inflator hose free flow, sudden mask lens implosion, entanglement, panicked buddy grabbing everything etc.

I have seen or been first hand involved in all of these scenarios and do not believe that most of the typical rec divers are equipped in equipment or skills to deal with them safely. The redundant equipment I referred to in the OP was mainly a spare mask and gas supply/regulator and I don’t believe I will see any argument to sway me that these are not necessary.

Thank you for posting up and following up on your opening post. I can see clearly what your rationale is for all the equipment and from this also why you asked the question. If it is OK I would like to ask you a question.

Why do bother with a buddy at all?

You regard your diving as solo and correctly equip yourself with the appropriate equipment for a solo dive. This is fine - I dive solo from time to time and have no issue with it. But if you regard every dive as solo then why on earth do you waste your time and energy bothering with a buddy? A buddy that isn't there to enhance your dive is just a waste of space. Their gas consumption will be different to yours and interfere with your dive plan. They will want to look at different things. Just a pain that you could really do without.

Seriously. Why do you ever buddy dive? What is the point? If you and I were on a boat together I would go do my own dive and let you do the same. I don't want to dive with you and you don't want to dive with me - nothing wrong with that - nothing at all. Have a great dive. See you back on the boat maybe.

 

[chrisch]

I'm a very new diver, but I already see the appeal in redundant air for dives to deeper depths.

As I have no permanent dive buddy, my experience with relying on your buddy for redundancy hasn't been very good.

On one dive, my insta-buddy thinks he's experienced as he is AOW, and was unwilling to go through predive checks with me.
Once under the surface, I had trouble locating the buddy as he was all over the place, disappearing whenever he deems fit to check out a critter, suddenly appearing behind, on top, or below of me whenever he pleases. Wasn't too nice of a dive, as I took more time seeking out my buddy rather than interesting things in the water.

On another dive in a freshwater lake with bad visibility (2 meters at most) where we had to follow guidelines, the DM just went on leading the dive, leaving me to follow him on my own. The DM even left the guideline without signalling to me at some point, leaving me rushing after him, and finally resorting to holding on to his tank to avoid losing my buddy.

Therefore, in cases like this, I just can't see the safety factor in treating your buddy as your redundancy option, and as such would rather carry an extra pony bottle just to be on the safe side.

But all in all, I too agree that the circumstances of the dive and the acceptable amount of risk for the diver himself would dictate his own equipment configuration, and shouldn't be criticised overly unless it presents a huge amount of risk that the diver is plainly unprepared to deal with.

I am sorry you have had such a poor experience of diving. I am surprised you haven't given up already. Everyone sees the appeal of their own personal redundant air source - it is a reassurance against the one in a million chance of equipment failure. Because failure is very rare most scuba divers don't die. Most don't even think about it - and so they become the rubbish instabuddy that doesn't care about sticking with his/her buddy and his/her redundant backup.

This is the tragedy of it all - the thinking person is the one that goes down the pony tank route. S/he has the imagination to envisage a situation where you need a backup and correctly recognises that the other people you meet do not really think about it at all.

Unfortunately this creates a situation to which there is no real answer. If you - the thinking diver - equipped as you are with a bailout, are buddied up to someone less analytical what is your stance? Do you think "I must stick next to this idiot at all costs in case they need me" or "I am OK to hell with them"? If it is the former then you do not need a redundant gas source as you are sticking close to one. If the latter you are a solo diver. Nothing wrong with solo diving but why do it in pairs?

Accidental buddy separation does happen - that is true. The procedure is to look for a very brief moment than head back up and alert the surface cover. Only if you combine this unlikely event with the unlikely event of equipment failure at exactly the same time does the need for a bailout really become a matter for consideration.

I am unwilling to take the chance that the instabuddy with the pony tank is of the "I am OK to hell with you" variety. Dive on your own and so will I.

 

[Random Dude]

@chrisch
Not gonna stop diving, cause I love it so much

As for solo diving, I still haven't tried it because
1. I'm still relatively new, and don't have much confidence in going full solo.
2. Custom for dive shops and guides here would be to have divers pair up, especially if they are newer divers
3. The girlfriend is terrified by the mere thought that I would be diving by myself

For my mentality, it's more of trying my best to stay with the buddy, so that I would be able to assist if needed. However, with redundant measures, I would still be able to save myself in the worst case scenario (e.g. getting tangled when low on air without buddy in sight)

For my situation, I'm thinking the best solution would be to just find a permanent buddy that I can trust and rely upon. Failing that however, I would love the reassurance of the knowledge that I can at the very least take care of myself if the worst were to happen.

Therefore, I spent quite a lot of time reading and learning about optimal equipment configuration, safer practices, concepts like rock bottom calculations, and also some extra knowledge on deco procedures, diving physiology, mechanisms of diving equipment etc, in order to improve on my diving and minimise risk at the same time.
Gonna take a self reliant diver course in the near future as well.

So far, the journey has been fun, even with occasional bad experiences with my buddies.

 

[Saniflush]

Shh, they may hear you and start adding sanizide to the water.

Will it then be safe to take a breath out of?