Why No Fundies for DIR Agnostics

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TSandM

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I remember reading what I thought was a very sad post from someone a couple of years ago. He had been in Grand Cayman, if I remember right, and had spent several days on a boat with some DIR-trained divers. He was very complimentary of their diligence and their diving skills . . . and ended the post by saying that he was too old or too far along to acquire those skills himself.

In fact, although it does take some instruction and a bit of practice, much better skills than are generally required in OW are within anyone's grasp. Non-silting propulsion techniques can be taught by anyone with a background in wreck penetration or cave diving (or Fundies :) ) and precise buoyancy and trim should also be found with any instructor who has a technical diving background (although sadly, it isn't universally true).

What's unique about Fundies is what gsk3 nailed -- it's the team component of diving, using all of these individual skills to form a tighter, more functional diving team to make everything easier, stress-free and more FUN.
 

Peter Guy

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DanV wrote
GUE skills without the the DIR.....kinda like teaching "combat martial arts skills" to all the rowdy drunks at a gin mill :)
I could not disagree more with this statement -- and on so many levels.

First -- IF there is "an essence" to "DIR" I propose it is "teamness" and "awareness" with "the Two P's (precision and preparation)" added in. Learning HOW to be a "team" and having situational awareness -- learning HOW to be "precise" in your diving and how to prepare for a dive are truly gear agnostic. In fact, of course, that is what AG and UTD appear to be trying to do with the various things UTD is promoting which is different from how GUE promotes itself. BUT, I would submit that BOTH are "DIR" -- what ever that is!

Second -- I also submit it is flip comments like this that give "DIR Diving and Training" (and GUE in particular) a bad (and generally undeserved) reputation.

I really do question how anyone could say that the Essentials of DIR class that Joe T taught me while I was in a single tank, SeaQuest Balance but with a 40" hose on my primary along with my AirSource combo inflator and Cobra "spg" (although I might also have had a bungied necklace -- just can't remember when "Santa" gave that to me) would be like being a "rowdy drunk."

Dan, are you saying that "The DIR" is something different from the skills? If so, then couldn't "the DIR" be taught by itself?
 

BCSGratefulDiver

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if GUE put out a "Groupon" for fundies training, for <$200 out the door, there might be a lot more interest. That is the current going rate for OW training around here. Most people I know don't see diving as an incredibly complex task and are perfectly happy with the bare bones training.

I am sure I would enjoy the training and learn a few things, but I'm not about to take the time and $$ to do it. Thankfully I glean as much as I can on here and also my regular buddies (mentors) are all tech-trained with a lot of experience.

So what you're saying is that you'd take the class if it was cheap, quick, and didn't require a whole lot of effort?

There's already plenty of those out there ... which is why people keep asking for something like Fundies ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 

gsk3

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haleman&#333;;5888107 said:
Could you elaborate on this some?

Cave Excursions

I took CDS-NSS Intro to Cave in my vest BC. My instructor did not even bat an eye with regards to my BC. Rented his larger than AL80 tank, with H-valve and 7' alternate off "his" 1st stage. There was never even one word from either Bill or my classmate about my SeaQuest ADV during either Cavern or Intro to Cave. :idk:

Thanks to the wonders of the written word, I'm sure my comment came off as skeptical that it can be done. But I rather meant exactly the literal meaning of the words: I wasn't sure whether it could work in a jacket-style BCD, since I've only dove one once (on a Discover SCUBA dive, pre-OW). Your example (and Peter's) clearly shows that it can.
 

mdax

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After going through full cave and side mount training we are pursuing gue training due to our observations of gue divers in the water.
Their level of skill and teamwork is far beyond what we've observed from others, the fitness and no smoking rules make complete sense.
Others can choose to do what they please, it's a free country.
 

danvolker

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I could not disagree more with this statement -- and on so many levels.

First -- IF there is "an essence" to "DIR" I propose it is "teamness" and "awareness" with "the Two P's (precision and preparation)" added in. Learning HOW to be a "team" and having situational awareness -- learning HOW to be "precise" in your diving and how to prepare for a dive are truly gear agnostic.
This is a key element of DIR in my mind.....the "back kick" or dead perfect horizontal trim is much less of a key aspect to DIR...
In fact, of course, that is what AG and UTD appear to be trying to do with the various things UTD is promoting which is different from how GUE promotes itself. BUT, I would submit that BOTH are "DIR" -- what ever that is!
Which ofcourse I agree with!

Second -- I also submit it is flip comments like this that give "DIR Diving and Training" (and GUE in particular) a bad (and generally undeserved) reputation.

Peter, I think you read something in to my post I did not intend.
You must know that I post on here to have fun, and when I add a smile or :) symbol, it means I am trying to be entertaining.

I may have been one of the people back in the 90's that offended people on a regular basis, but I think the last 5 years of my posting has been just the opposite. If anything, i go way out of my way not to offend people regarding DIR issues and DIR Diving....
That being said, I am not going to take this to the point of political correctness that I can't have some fun once in a while, and make a joke....DIR can't be dead serious all the time, or people will think it is a religious cult :)


I really do question how anyone could say that the Essentials of DIR class that Joe T taught me while I was in a single tank, SeaQuest Balance but with a 40" hose on my primary along with my AirSource combo inflator and Cobra "spg" (although I might also have had a bungied necklace -- just can't remember when "Santa" gave that to me) would be like being a "rowdy drunk."

Ok Peter, I was saying this with a big smile on my face..... :) It was not supposed to be taken to suggest non-DIR people were really rowdy drunks....just that they are not operating with the same attitudes and behaviors that the real DIR divers operate with..the team work differrences, the peripherol awareness difference, etc.

Of course in the future I may have to start referring to divers from the pugent sound area as being "rowdy" :)

Dan, are you saying that "The DIR" is something different from the skills? If so, then couldn't "the DIR" be taught by itself?

Absolutely. It would be teaching DIR mindset. it would be teaching how we proactively solve problems before they become problems. It would be getting people to actually think about their buddy's needs at the same time they are thinking about their own needs. And on and on. Alot of this has been discussed heavilly on the internet for over a decade. I think it is best absorbed my mentoring, and freqeunt dives with good DIR divers.
 
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aussie82

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To the OP, I would suggest a private training day with a GUE instructor. That's what I did with Guy Shockey. I travelled a long way and spent a lot of money too. I only did one day of training and it was worth it (for me). The nice thing was that there wasn't any stress and I learned an amazing amount. I didn't have all the gear so I rented/borrowed some. Some people seem so focused on what classes they've taken and not really on learning. I want to be a better diver. That was my main motivation for the training. YMMV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

djtimmy77

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So what you're saying is that you'd take the class if it was cheap, quick, and didn't require a whole lot of effort?

There's already plenty of those out there ... which is why people keep asking for something like Fundies ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You misunderstood my second comment, trying to tie it into the first comment and put words in my mouth. :no: whatever.
 

Gombessa

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You misunderstood my second comment, trying to tie it into the first comment and put words in my mouth. :no: whatever.

While cost is definitely a concern for most divers, and the total cost of Fundies can be considered quite high, several of us have done the math for our classes and found that the sheer number of hours spent by an instructor in a Fundies class can work out to much than $30/hr. Considering the quality of instruction, and split between three students, that's a steal for what we got.

Also, if you're aware of how Groupon works (and how much of a cut they take from the discount), you quickly see how a $200 class, which represents between a 60% to more than 80% discount on a class, is unfortunately unfeasible for any instructor who is not outright donating his time. And while I know you're only using Groupon as an example, many businesses depend on the scale delivered by Groupon's community response in order to break even or turn a profit on their discounted rates, and for GUE, as a very small agency with relatively few instructors, the bottleneck is not in the lack of students.
 

Peter Guy

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Dan -- I just wanted to specifically write that I really enjoyed your response to my rant. In particular, I want to highlight what I think may be the best "definition" of why "DIR" diving (and training) is special:

It would be teaching DIR mindset. it would be teaching how we proactively solve problems before they become problems. It would be getting people to actually think about their buddy's needs at the same time they are thinking about their own needs.
Way too many people think "it" is all about the gear -- I am convinced it is not. Instead, it is about the mindset and HOW that is taught takes an awful lot of training and experience.

I can probably do a fair-to-midling job of teaching the "basic skills" that one learns in a Fundies class -- I am not at all sure that I have the knowledge or experience to be able to teach the mindset -- AND THAT is why the classes are small, focused and at a very high level.

Again, thank you for a great response.
 
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