Suggestion Why isn't there a "Men's Forum"?

[divad]

Just asking.

 

[drrich2]

It's interesting how a field that has predominantly male participation gets referred to as 'male dominated.' As if the guys conquered the terrain, and the women were living on a reservation; guy could get on the dive boat and yell 'Woman, get me a beer!'

As to why men often post in the women's perspectives forum, any group that's attacked is prone to defend itself, and in some threads there've been posters who over-generalized, jumped to conclusions, etc..., insulting men. Even civil debate of ideas by a male poster can trigger sexist behavior by some women (e.g.: accusations of 'Man Splain'in'). Men and women do overlap a lot and so there's hardly any dimension of human behavior unique to either gender, and thus sexism is alive and well in some of both.

The book 'Why Men Are The Way They Are' opened my eyes to the fact gender roles/sexism is not simply something men do to women, but a product of society that impacts both men and women.

Yes, I reject the male model in that I reject being "pigeon holed" (your phrase) into a man's perspective of what equality means. And part of this is a result of the feminist movement and their tendency to want to be treated like a man in order to feel equal. That is not me. I will never be the equal to a man in a male dominated society. Historically we have failed to value the skills and roles of women. That was the problem. And the fact that women were "pigeon holed" into these roles.

The solution is not to make women like men for us to be equal but to value the skills and contributions of women. And yes there are differences but there is also a lot of common ground where even now things are not equal. Pay inequality is the best example I can think of at the moment.

There's a lot bundled into this, and I'd like to unpack it a bit. Just what 'skills and roles of women' are, for one. Modern political correctness often allows to praise of what are perceived to be feminine strengths - compassion, nurturance, empathy and collaboration. Yet if you talk up 'male' attributes in a positive way, you can come off as sexist. After all, are you implying women can't do those things?

The pay inequality is interesting, at least amongst Physicians, where I hear of it the most. While it's mentioned in reports, what isn't trumpeted so loudly is men average more hours on the job, people who dedicate more of their lives to work are probably more likely to get promoted. Such reports don't tend to compare free time, time with family, attendance rate at family events and so on, or consider that women spend a majority of the money in society, and much of the money those men earn is for their families, not merely self-indulgence. My point is success in life is portrayed as though measured by money, status and hierarchical power, traditional male metrics, yet how many people are concerned about women being pigeon-holed into their success being defined by a male-based model?

My point is, there is sexism, but there's a whole lot more, and even where there's sexism, it's not always a guy who's responsible.

Richard.

 

[divad]

Men aren't that interesting.

 

[uncfnp]

There's a lot bundled into this, and I'd like to unpack it a bit. Just what 'skills and roles of women' are, for one. Modern political correctness often allows to praise of what are perceived to be feminine strengths - compassion, nurturance, empathy and collaboration. Yet if you talk up 'male' attributes in a positive way, you can come off as sexist. After all, are you implying women can't do those things?

Hi Richard. Again please bear with me because I am not very good at selecting words to express concepts and I am on vacation and honestly focused more on good eats and diving.

As with many other social issues the pendulum tends to swing too far in the other direction and over compensate and gender issues are no exception. I am not a fan of political correctness. Especially when its just the expected thing to say but not how the individual feels in their core. So men now value compassion, empathy and nurturance? I wonder how a women that has had to struggle to be accepted in corporate America would feel about this statement. Sure it sounds good but in my admittedly limited reality it simply isn't so.

The pay inequality is interesting, at least amongst Physicians, where I hear of it the most. While it's mentioned in reports, what isn't trumpeted so loudly is men average more hours on the job, people who dedicate more of their lives to work are probably more likely to get promoted. Such reports don't tend to compare free time, time with family, attendance rate at family events and so on, or consider that women spend a majority of the money in society, and much of the money those men earn is for their families, not merely self-indulgence. My point is success in life is portrayed as though measured by money, status and hierarchical power, traditional male metrics, yet how many people are concerned about women being pigeon-holed into their success being defined by a male-based model?

Richard. I am surprised and I think I must be misreading. "Much of the money men earn is for their families, not merely self-indulgence"? What decade are you living in? Even I as a "mature" female missed that boat. Twice I put my goals on hold to support husbands as they sought college degrees then after the divorce had to but myself through collage for my degrees. I have no children and can not remember the last day I missed work for family or as a sick day for that matter. Even in my current relationship I pay exactly half the bills. Show me where any of my income through any of my adult years has been self-indulgent. So how would you justify not giving equal pay for equal work in my case?

Ok. I give up. You guys obviously know more about life as a female then I do.

 

[Bubblesong]

We need an icon that is digging itself into a hole for this thread.
Food for thought:
1)If men cannot possibly understand women's perspectives, why is this charge never leveled at gay guys? Those gay guys were our rock in college relationship cry-athons.
2)I have five exasperating brothers, and I worked in a male dominated field, which was aggravating on a daily basis, but also interesting new perspectives as well. Most of the respect-worthy guys expect the best from themselves and others, and that is a pretty good approach.
3) NONE of this gives weight to whether or not we need a Men's Forum so there is somewhere to post about male physiology and SCUBA diving, male culture and foreign travel, male psych and tipping.
4)what is it with guys and tipping? men seem to wield it like a Superpower over DM's and Guides in some of the Threads. Seems...autocratic somehow.

 

[Bubblesong]

So how would you justify not giving equal pay for equal work in my case?

Guys have long know that you don't get what you deserve but what you negotiate. The ongoing fight for a better salary is a separate job from whatever career we chose. Fight on sister!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

 

[uncfnp]

Guys have long know that you don't get what you deserve but what you negotiate. The ongoing fight for a better salary is a separate job from whatever career we chose. Fight on sister!

You are exactly right. I was not taught this skill but after my first meeting to discuss a pay raise I caught on pretty quickly.

 

[CuzzA]

Well I PM'd NetDoc requesting a Men's Forum be added but he resists my persuasive and ingratiating pleas. He probably suspects me of plotting to post blush worthy men's topics. #thwarted.

I believe this was attempted in the past and he decided there would not be a Men's Forum aka Bikini Thread in the Pub.

 

[uncfnp]

Diver0001. I will try one last time and tie it into the topic of the thread.

My idea of equality is not to make us all sit in one big room and play happy together but to allow each of us the same space and freedom to just be oursleves on an equal level. So to the Male forum question my answer is not to take the Women's forum away but to give the men a Male forum if they truly want one. As others have said, it should prove entertaining.

 

[drrich2]

Richard. I am surprised and I think I must be misreading. "Much of the money men earn is for their families, not merely self-indulgence"? What decade are you living in?

This one. I'm the bread winner for my family. A couple of family Doc.s I knew when I was in training seemed practically 'office-bound' most of the time while their wives chauffeured the kids around to activities and reported in. How many men have gotten 'taken to the cleaners' in divorce proceedings?

Twice I put my goals on hold to support husbands as they sought college degrees then after the divorce had to but myself through collage for my degrees. I have no children and can not remember the last day I missed work for family or as a sick day for that matter. Even in my current relationship I pay exactly half the bills. Show me where any of my income through any of my adult years has been self-indulgent.

Nothing I spoke of addressing trends matters to your individual experience. Most women haven't done what you have.

So how would you justify not giving equal pay for equal work in my case?

I don't. Nor do I advocate for such in other cases, when the work is truly equal. My point is, the work cited often is not equal, speaking of trends in large population group. Someone will say a woman makes 70 cents on a man's dollar, or some such ball park figure. Which conjures a mental picture of 1 man & 1 woman, same age & everything but gender, hiring on at the same job and company, working the same hours & seniority, and she's making $35,000/yr to his $50,000/yr. Obviously unjust.

But what if he works more hours? And when a promotion opportunity comes up, management decides to promote the more committed (in terms of hours) full-timer over the part-timer? If she took 2 or 3 years off for childcare after having a baby, and he didn't, then he's got 2 or 3 years more seniority.

I believe in equal pay for equal work. When the work is equal. Which is often not the case.

Richard.

P.S.: I wasn't implying women use their money disproportionately for self-indulgence. I was challenging what I perceive to be the unspoken assumption that if men make a given sum of money, that they wholly own/dominate it and use it solely for themselves. In many cases, that money becomes family money.