Why is it so hard to thumb a dive?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

GLOC

Contributor
Scuba Instructor
Messages
120
Reaction score
147
Location
Malmesbury, UK
# of dives
500 - 999
9EkRFoejTibna5OPJvnA_ypsXjaUTcKXRBVqChF2Q_7f2b43ee-4cb8-4fc9-a352-4dbb30da4204.jpg

One of the key messages given to divers all through their training is that anyone can thumb (end) the dive at any time for any reason and no questions will be asked. However, those who have been in a such a situation, it isn't easy.

"There were four of us diving on the wreck which lay in 48m. We knew the visibility wasn't going to be great so decided to swim as two close pairs, rather than the loose four we normally did. As we hit the wreck we realised it was bad so stayed close to the side of the hull at the highest point (wreck lies on its side). After quite a few minutes thinking this was bad we all turned to each other, pretty much at the same time, and thumbed the dive. On the boat we discussed that as we had got to the wreck that this was going to be a rubbish dive and we should thumb it. But no-one wanted to."

In-group vs out-group inferred peer pressures. One of the factors contributing to this decision-making was in-group pressure. No-one likes to be different. We often talk about peer-pressure being brought to bear on divers to carry on when they shouldn't have done, and many say that when someone is taken beyond their comfort and capability zones, they were pressured into doing it, inferring that there was some sort of verbal communication to make it happen. Yet much of the peer pressure isn't active, but rather it is inferred peer pressure to want to be part of the in-group. This effect isn't just limited to close groups with direct visibility, Paletz showed that it happens in aviation too where pilots in Alaska would make decisions based on whether prior aircraft had been able to land in poor weather.

If you are placed in a situation where you can see others in the group looking around for someone to make a decision, you need to have the self-confidence to communicate your feelings and thoughts too. You will be thanked for it. You will also give confidence to others in the group for future situations.

Loss aversion & risky behaviour. Another part of the decision-making process is the fact that most people will take more risks when they are in a losing situation than when they are in a winning situation.

Importantly, in this context, losing doesn't mean that you have actually lost something, but the threat of losing it is enough to take further risks.

Consider that you have had the last 3 weekends of diving blown out and this weekend you are going to be diving a wreck that you've been waiting to dive all year. It is also the last dive you have planned for a month because of work and family commitments. The weather is marginal with a large swell but the visibility on the wreck the day before was reportedly amazing. You haven't had much sleep as you had to get up early to drive down to the harbour and so feeling very tired. You meet up with the rest of the divers and that realise one of the team who was going to make up your team of three hasn't been able to make it and you are now all paired up. You and your teammate don't know anyone else on the boat. On the way out to the wreck the weather doesn't pick up and so you are bouncing around, not feeling well. The skipper fails to shot/hook the site on the first two passes and the time before the current will pick up is getting less. You are getting more uncomfortable but you know that if you thumb the dive before you get in, your buddy will be unable to dive too. It is your team's turn to leave the boat and whilst walking over, you fall and bang your knee. You get up, walk to the gate and jump off, but in a lot of pain.

As you enter the water you see that the visibility is in excess of 15m and as you descend you start to see the wreck in its entirety. As you reach the wreck your leg starts to really hurt and you are struggling to fin comfortably. You push the pain away because you are having an amazing dive but you would really like to end the dive...eventually, you reach the pressure agreed to end the dive and you start your ascent. Your leg is really hurting now and you realise you are going to have to get back on the boat in the swell...to get back on the boat you have to dekit because you cannot stand on the lift and in the process your expensive dive computer gets lost along with your steel reel and dSMB.

In your own mind, how far would you have taken the dive before thumbing it? Before you got in? Immediately on entry, once you realised you would have to get back on the boat? Once the pain started to pick up?

There are a number of factors which all contributed to you making a decision, which in hindsight, wasn't necessarily the best one.

- Your 3 previous dives have been lost. This is your last opportunity to dive for a while. There is a potential for loss.
- Your ability to end the dive before you get in and your buddy still dive disappears when your 3rd team member doesn't show up. Not just your loss now, also your buddy's.
- The time pressures mean that there is less to time to assess the situation after the fall.
- The visibility which was forecast added further benefits which would have been lost had you not dived.
- The visibility on the dive also increases the reluctance to end the dive, thereby increasing the loss.
- "I have done x mins on the dive so far, it won't be that bad if I carry on"
- Fatigue is known to be a pre-cursor to poor decision making as we want to make a quick decision.

Those of you reading this and thinking you would do something differently, there is significant research by Kanheman, Tversky and Thaler that shows these behaviours cover multiple domains and experiences and that in the main we behave the same way.

Interestingly, Kahneman showed that the scale of gain to overcome a loss needs to be in the order of two times. Therefore we have to perceive that the benefit is twice the loss before we will change, which is very difficult when we don't know how bad it could be. Furthermore, how do you perceive a benefit to an intangible like feeling good or bad after a dive?

So what can we do about it?

Recognising that when we are in a "losing situation" we are likely to take more risks and raise our awareness as a consequence.

When we are tired, we will look to make an 'easy' decision rather than break it down into logical steps.

Briefings are a great way of 'drawing lines in the sand' which means deviation is easier to spot and improves the ability to be assertive.

If you are diving in a structured setup, occasionally have the leader thumb the dive and explain why they did so. If the leadership figures have demonstrated that it is ok to "accept the loss", then others will follow because of in-group inferred peer-pressure.

Debrief after the dive to see whether the decisions made as an individual or group were compromised, and determine if it is possible to recognise the signs and symptoms of distress. e.g. people looking around and waiting for someone to make a decision. It is only by feedback can we improve. Furthermore, others may have seen something you missed which improves your situational awareness.




---------------------------------------------
Footnote:

The Human Factors Academy provides two classes to improve human performance and reduce the likelihood of human error of occurring. The online class provides a comprehensive grounding of Human Factors giving you the basic skills need to improve human performance and reduce error, whereas the classroom-based class is very comprehensive and intense with plenty of opportunity to learn from failure and error, and providing an opportunity to be reflective on behaviours and performance.

Online-class testimonial. "This well-presented course is ideal for divers of any qualification or level of experience. Thought provoking and educational, it covers a number of factors that will make you a better, safety aware, buddy or team diver - ultimately making your diving more enjoyable as a result. I have learnt a lot from this short online course, and will certainly take forward some of the material covered, both as an instructor and in my own diving. Dive safety should not be seen as a 'nice to have' and as such I recommend this course to divers of all levels."
Marcus Rose, Instructor Intern, GUE

Two-day class testimonial. “Good food for thought that forces you to hold a mirror up to your own behaviour and how you interact with others. Fascinating to understand why we respond the way we do and gives you the tools to change that behaviour.”
Jason Brown, Owner BARDO Creative, Advanced Trimix OC Diver

Online micro-class (9 modules of approximately 15 mins each) details are here. What have you got to lose? 15 mins a day to improve your personal and team performance? Human Factors Skills in Diving Online Mini-Course - 20% off code HFSD-ET16 valid until 15 Oct 23:59 GMT

Upcoming classroom-based course dates are here Training Course Dates

More information on Human Factors Skills in Diving classes can be found at www.humanfactors.academy
 
Last edited:
. . .To step from a daily life that is carefully bounded by laws and safety locks and guardrails into a predicament where your life hinges on your own ability to assess a dangerous situation can be both disconcerting and exhilarating. . . there is a profound desire for this kind of self-reliance among many people who live in an era when, in the Western world anyway, there is very little opportunity for it. In a difficult or risky situation in the wilderness, the total reliance on oneself and trust in one's teammates and the need for total focus -whether climbing a rock face, skiing a steep chute, or paddling a whitewater canyon- brings a crystalline awareness of the world around . . . One hears it again and again: that at moments like this the participant feels acutely alive.

There are risks of course -risks of all sizes- and sometimes the participant pays the ultimate price for them. . . there are no sure answers, no solid black lines to demarcate caution from boldness, and boldness from foolishness, or rather that those lines constantly shift depending on circumstance and the individual . . . So why go in the first place? . . .It is here where you must utterly rely on your own judgment:

. . .Ultimately, each person who ventures out must make his or her own decisions about how far to go and what point to turn back. There's an old saying among prospectors who comb the hills for gold here in the American West: "Gold is where you find it". You can say the same about adventure. For that matter, you can say it about risk, about death, and about being acutely alive. . .

(Abridged, from the Introduction in the book, Last Breath: Cautionary Tales From The Limits of Human Endurance by Peter Stark)
 
Last edited:
Interesting article. Behavioural economics is a very interesting area, and I suspect it can give insights into quite a few areas.

I thumbed a dive at the bottom of the shot for the first time last Saturday.

It was pitch black with maybe 1m visibility, and relatively deep by my standards (36m). The current was running. We had been strongly advised to get back to the shot. I wasn't confident I would be able to haul myself along the wreck against the tide. It was the second dive of the day, so I only had 150 bar in my twinset at the start.

I'm glad I thumbed it. However, I arguably should have made different decisions earlier, such as going back to the boat at the surface when it was clear how far off slack we were.
 
Thank you for sharing some of the content to help us see the valuable information you will be teaching! I had been interested earlier but did not know enough to make a decision. I'm sure people's safety will be impacted by this learning.

Warm regards,
Cameron
 
After 1300+ dives, it is not at all difficult to call off a dive. The only regrets is the time & energy expended to get to that point,... but if things aren't right, if I just can't get my head in the game,... I'm outta there. The water is not going anywhere,... there will be time to dive later, when conditions are more favorable. I am MUCH more respectful of a diver who knows their limitations & calls the dive,... than someone with no awareness or too much ego, who can not call it off for said reasons, thus placing BOTH of us at greater risk.
 
I thumbed a dive when I couldn't equalized one of my ear. Glad I did it as I was able to redo the dive later in the afternoon.

I learnt it the hard way of forcing a dive at similar situation & ended up missing a couple days of a week dive trip for recovering from ear pain.
 
I learnt it the hard way of forcing a dive at similar situation & ended up missing a couple days of a week dive trip for recovering from ear pain.
Unfortunately (fortunately) this is how we learn. We learn through failure and then a feedback loop to improve. We can't learn everything on a training course, so we learn 'on the job'. Nearly all of the time that learning doesn't involve a physical injury, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it ends really badly.

To learn we need to have a feedback loop, and that is the discussion (debrief) after the dive.

"What made you feel you couldn't thumb it?"
"I thought you would be upset which is why I didn't thumb it..." and so on.

As tstormdiver highlights, it is much easier to thumb the dive when you have experience. Maybe because you have experienced the loss in the past and it wasn't that bad, or maybe because you wished you had made the decision in the past and the not 'thumb' situation meant that more was lost...

Cameron, thanks. I hope so too. The courses are very hard to describe because they are very alien to the majority of divers. A constant piece of feedback I get is "I wasn't sure what to expect, but it has exceeded all expectations, I am really glad I undertook it" - this is especially the case for the classroom based class which is a significant investment but then they are life skills, taught in a professional manner to the same level or exceeding that taught in other non-diving domains.

Regards
 
Interesting points in this post! It got me thinking a bit, and I think I have some ideas for divers that may make this easier.
There is an obvious pressure to want to go forward with a dive, at any level. The prep time, the travel, the excitement about doing the dive in the first place, even the eagerness of your buddy to dive - many things push you psychologically to want to go forward with a dive, no matter what the conditions or circumstances when you get there. But this is where dive planning is a critical element, and can help you out with being able to thumb a dive.

At the recreational level, in particular, dive planning is as follows: We are jumping in at this spot, that the DM told us is whatever depth, and we are going to swim around until either we are running low on gas, or we are running low on NDL, then we will come back. In truth, if your dive plan is "I'm going in, doing what my computer says is safe, then coming back," you will likely be OK as long as the conditions are what you expect them to be and you don't experience any problems - but your computer can't assess the environment or the other circumstances that may make diving unsafe or not pleasurable.

My recommendation is that part of the dive planning discussion includes SPECIFICS about visibility expectations, current expectations, and diver comfort with other things in the dive plan. That way, if a dive starts with the plan that if visibility is less than 10 feet (as an example - may people wouldn't be turned off by this, but some inexperienced divers would), no one will have to feel bad that upon reaching the bottom and finding visibility to be 5 feet, that they thumb the dive for being uncomfortable. It's part of the plan, after all.

Likewise, identifying other problems - like fear of sharks, or a recurrent foot cramp, or a problem with a piece of gear - are worth discussing in the context of a dive plan, BEFORE hitting the water. That way, if a problem develops or starts to escalate, you already have the plan for aborting the dive, and it will be an easier decision for all people involved.

Thinking of these things ahead of time are a great way to anticipate problems and develop solutions, especially in an ocean environment, where the conditions can be rather unpredictable at times. But considering the human element, PEOPLE can be even more unpredictable - and discussion regarding the mental and physical states and limitations of your dive buddies should be part of a good dive plan!
 
I attempted multiple times to get OW Dive 1 before I thumbed it. I was running on little sleep (didn't sleep well night before), running behind due to long check in line that morning, plus arms length viz. Perfect storm of discombobulation. I knew when I had enough on about the 4th attempt to descend and I couldn't get comfortable

Last weekend I went diving with a regional group. Did 2 dives Saturday. First ones after certification. About 30 minutes into 2nd dive, I just had enough and thumbed it.

I'm glad I've learned to do this early in my diving career.
 
In the bad vis wreck dive scenario, it didn't seem like there was a reason to thumb the dive other than "Meh, I'm board" unless any of the divers were feeling antsy about the conditions.

The majority of the diving I do, and am responsible for, are scientific dives that have a specific objective. If the vis is so bad the objective can't be met, it's an easy call for divers to thumb a dive. Without the objectives I usually go to a shoulder shrug-question-thumbs up as in "you want to call the dive?" That takes the pressure off others if they are feeling the same way, and if it's just me that feels that way I can carry on being bored. Just because it's a command signal doesn't mean it can't be a question too. I certainly preach the call any dive for any reason, and I'm happy to report I do have people call dives for just feeling off. I tend to debrief with them afterwards, but I need to be better about debriefing after dives where nothing went wrong as well.

GLOC, the short (intro?) course you did at the AAUS conference was great, I hope you come back in the future so I can get in on the full day version. I'm looking forward to doing the on-line class in the meantime.

-Chris
 

Back
Top Bottom