why enter a cave

[jmneill]

Please, PLEASE, PLEASE think again and quit doing this, or get some training!

I have my cavern class coming up in a couple weeks. I'm actually genuinely looking forwards to learning some these things that I don't know. As I never plan to go cave, I hope to walk away from the cavern course with a better understanding as to why OW divers diving in cavern environments draws the level of concern that it does from some members of this board. (and while others go straight to guns becoming belligerent asses adding nothing to the trending overhead thread of the week) SB members pointing to some death that has recenly occured somewhere in the world (almost always in an environment they were unfamiliar with) just doesn't do anything for me.

 

[Superlyte27]

I cant wait to get to a computer to give this the proper response it deserves.

Obviously I made it to a computer

---------- Post Merged at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:37 PM ----------

I have my cavern class coming up in a couple weeks. I'm actually genuinely looking forwards to learning some these things that I don't know. As I never plan to go cave, I hope to walk away from the cavern course with a better understanding as to why OW divers diving in cavern environments draws the level of concern that it does from some members of this board. (and while others go straight to guns becoming belligerent asses adding nothing to the trending overhead thread of the week) SB members pointing to some death that has recenly occured somewhere in the world (almost always in an environment they were unfamiliar with) just doesn't do anything for me.

JM, who are you doing your cavern class with? I only ask because depending on instructor, you might not learn "a better understanding as to why OW divers diving in cavern environments draws the level of concern that it does from some members of this board".

 

[jmneill]

Obviously I made it to a computer

---------- Post Merged at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:37 PM ----------



JM, who are you doing your cavern class with? I only ask because depending on instructor, you might not learn "a better understanding as to why OW divers diving in cavern environments draws the level of concern that it does from some members of this board".

Edit: I am PMing you Superlyte. (if you didn't catch it already)

 

[Superlyte27]

I got the PM, and JM will indeed get good instruction. I wish you good luck.

 

[Them]

How is it any different than all the people who go hiking in the desert without knowing what they are in for? Or driving 4x4 trails, or climbing rocks/trees, or boating, or walking through urban areas, or running marathons?

Think about that last one. Every year in the US about 5 people will fall down dead because they choose to run a marathon that day. How can they keep doing it?

Nowadays every single special interest group has a forum like this. Every single forum will discuss, hash, rehash, flame about, and in general beat their chests for a month or so over each single incident. What went wrong, who is to blame, how stupid everyone involved was, how people just don't understand, how it will hurt the activity, how talking about it will hurt the activity, how... Well, let's just say that right now there are probably people posting on forums about the problem of untrained people who just don't know the hazards they are courting for activities ranging from mountain climbing to cooking. And they are right, those things are dangerous.

Now as far as I can tell about 10 people a year die diving in caves. The majority of those are OW certified, but the majority of ALL divers are OW certified. If 90% of divers are OW, and 80% of cave diving deaths are OW, that means that OW divers are under represented (and therefore avoiding the risks that people with more training are taking)...even though OW certified divers make up the largest category. That's a bit of math most people forget to do when they look at statistics.

For scale: In the USA about 80 people per year die in above-water caves. About 900 die riding bicycles.

So why do they? Obviously it seemed like a good idea at the time. Who hasn't had a moment like that in their life? Usually you get through it, sometimes people don't. Nature is an uncaring bit.....

 

[Darnold9999]

If 90% of divers are OW, and 80% of cave diving deaths are OW, that means that OW divers are under represented

....your math is a bit suspect here. You are assuming that cave dives are evenly distributed among the population of OW divers and Cave certified divers - which is extremely unlikely. More likely is that the vast majority of cave dives are done by Cave Certified divers and only a small percentage is done by non Cave certified divers (OW divers) and that these non Certified divers are significantly over represented in the deaths - not under represented. However having no real numbers to work with re who is doing cave dives all this is conjecture and not particulalry useful.

 

[TreyR]

I have my cavern class coming up in a couple weeks. I'm actually genuinely looking forwards to learning some these things that I don't know. As I never plan to go cave, I hope to walk away from the cavern course with a better understanding as to why OW divers diving in cavern environments draws the level of concern that it does from some members of this board. (and while others go straight to guns becoming belligerent asses adding nothing to the trending overhead thread of the week) SB members pointing to some death that has recenly occured somewhere in the world (almost always in an environment they were unfamiliar with) just doesn't do anything for me.

You plan to stop at cavern? Let me know how that works for you! Wait til you're there at the Reaper sign, just on the edge of the cavern zone looking into the darkness. Silently hovering, nothing but the sound of your bubbles. It calls to you, you'll want to go further. You'll sign up for a cave class before the ink on your cavern card is dry.

 

[Griffo]

I've yet to dive in a cave. But I do know that I did overheard pen dives on a shipwrecks with only an OW cert. Simply because, I didn't know better. While the OW course had the usual "never go into an overhead environment" briefing, I don't think the real dangers were explained properly. It seemed a lot like one of those ass covering cautionary notes than anything to be really concerned about. I don't think i'd even heard the term "silt out" till I joined SB.

 

[SkimFisher]

That math sounds pretty fuzzy.


Part of the reason we get so flapped up about keeping OW divers out of caves is that every time an OW diver cashes out inside one it runs the risk of ruining it for the rest of us. It has closed sites in the past. Couple that with the fact that the media rarely gives the whole story when reporting on these deaths, and what you get is a tarnished image for the sport and a misrepresentation of what being a cave diver is all about. A lot of work has gone into improving the image of the sport in the last 30 years. It's not just about you.

I also hear or read OW divers talk about wreck penetration all the time. Equally as dangerous, if not more so in my book. The difference is that the wrecks are a little harder to police out on the open ocean. Simply living through the dive does not serve to validate your approach. Familiarize yourself with the 'normalization of deviance'. I'm not the first to post this clip, but it's a perfect example of what lands OW divers in trouble.

The Normalization of Deviance, Part 1

 

[Them]

....your math is a bit suspect here. You are assuming that cave dives are evenly distributed among the population of OW divers and Cave certified divers - which is extremely unlikely. More likely is that the vast majority of cave dives are done by Cave Certified divers and only a small percentage is done by non Cave certified divers (OW divers) and that these non Certified divers are significantly over represented in the deaths - not under represented. However having no real numbers to work with re who is doing cave dives all this is conjecture and not particulalry useful.

Actually, no, that wasn't my assumption - that is what I was claiming was false.

You are right, though, that without accurate entry vs live exit numbers by classification there are real limits to what points can be drawn.