Why don't we emphasize cesa more??

[The_DivePirate]

"Knowing how to do something and never having to is different from not knowing and having to."

What an awesome Idea!!! I like this guy. Like I told my first instructor, " i would rather have an encyclapedia of knowledge and need a peechee's worth. Than have a peechee and need a dictionary!

Dive safe/Train hard,
Joe

Maybe, if your nephew's DM for his class, could have had the chance to refer to other DM's on a board such as this, in order to help him stay focused. Maybe that would have helped?

OK,,, maybe I'm trying a little hard?

 

[lamont]

Don't know if I would buy this. Rentals do fail. First stages do fail. Second stages do fail. Assigned buddies are usually worthless buddies. S-drill assume that your equipments do not fail.

Why can't you just be prepared? The better prepared, the more likely you will execute the ascend safely. When dive instructor and DM dies from pulmonary embolism, my question would be - did they cesa, or did they hold their breath?

If technical divers could not completely eliminate the possibility of CESA then they would never do decompression dives. With a techncial dive, a CESA will kill you.

Yes, you need to buy your own regs and gear and keep them in good shape. Yes, you do need to be able to rely on your buddy to be close to you and be able to perform an s-drill and to do proper gas management. If you can't rely on your buddy that well, then you are solo diving and you should sling an Al40.

You believe that you need to do a CESA because you tolerate conditions (rental equipment, bad buddies) that you should not tolerate.

 

[fisherdvm]

Is that what happened to your nephew? His regulator failed? If so, it seems somewhat harsh to characterize him as incompetent.

No, you did not read the post I asked before I dove with him. I quizzed him before we dove, and he can not think of what to do in an out of air situation, except to go to his buddy. He did not know how to assemble his gear, hook the first stage on the tank, did not know what CESA stand for, did not know how to put his snorkel on his mask, was not able to descend, shot past his 15 ft safety stop, did not have a dive watch.... Later, when he dove with my sister, he surfaced with less than 100 psi. If you dove with him, you would really question why he was given a C card. I really told him that he should give up diving after the 2nd dive, or get plenty of supervised dives. Despite of this, his 5 th dive, with my sister, he surfaced with less than 100 psi. But the point here is not about my nephew. It is about why divers - especially the professional type - dies of pulmonary embolism.

As a physician, I am asking, is it a pulmonary, a structural or anatomic pahology, or is it simply - inability to perform CESA??

 

[lamont]

As a physician, I am asking, is it a pulmonary, a structural or anatomic pahology, or is it simply - inability to perform CESA??

A failed OOA involving the victim inspiring water and suffering a laryngospam could result in an involuntary CESA with a closed airway.

 

[Adobo]

No, you did not read the post I asked before I dove with him. I quizzed him before we dove, and he can not think of what to do in an out of air situation, except to go to his buddy. He did not know how to assemble his gear, hook the first stage on the tank, did not know what CESA stand for, did not know how to put his snorkel on his mask, was not able to descend, shot past his 15 ft safety stop, did not have a dive watch.... Later, when he dove with my sister, he surfaced with less than 100 psi. If you dove with him, you would really question why he was given a C card. I really told him that he should give up diving after the 2nd dive, or get plenty of supervised dives. Despite of this, his 5 th dive, with my sister, he surfaced with less than 100 psi. But the point here is not about my nephew. It is about why divers - especially the professional type - dies of pulmonary embolism.

As a physician, I am asking, is it a pulmonary, a structural or anatomic pahology, or is it simply - inability to perform CESA??

I wasn't there and I certainly do not want to second guess.. But from an outsider's perspective, I would say that the nephew's issues are not gonna be solved by simply learning how to CESA.

I suspect that if you solve all those other issues, you will have made diving safer not only for your nephew but also anyone who he happens to dive with.

 

[fisherdvm]

A failed OOA involving the victim inspiring water and suffering a laryngospam could result in an involuntary CESA with a closed airway.

Thanks, I am always learning from you guys.

The instructor DAN mentioned was diving with a rebreather. Certainly, he might have inhaled chemical or fume that caused the laryngeal spasm, and not necessary that he did not know the skill.

Unfortunately, I like the freedom of diving with rentals. I am very careful about the predive check, but it is not going to be perfect. But hopefully, between the two regs, one will work, assuming the first stage will not cause problem

As far as the buddy part, my wife can not dive due to physical impairment. I enjoy diving so much, that I will continue to dive without knowing much about my buddies. Most of my buddies have been non-buddies, essentially I see diving is a solo activity for me.

 

[fisherdvm]

After discussing about 6 cases of OOA deaths, DAN concluded: ".....emergency procedures, especially those related to OOA situations, are skills we must consistently practice and hone. If we haven't practiced such procedures recently, and these skills are suddentlycalled upon, our mental stress meter can rocket to the red zone"...

For a casual, non technical diver, who just wants to enjoy fun in the sun, I think we should look at events that will, and can happen. It is easy to say, bring your own regulator, get a good buddy, good gas managements, etc... But you can not change the mentality of a good 70% of certified divers out there - the once or twice a year cruise divers.

For these folks, simpler methods should be considered. Eventhough as much as 2/3 of those on the forum would disagree with me, even a 1.7 cu ft spare air can be enough valium to relax a panic diver till he surfaced. Argument about how little these little cans can do suggests that they are good for only a few breaths. I have tried to suck down a 3 cu ft can once, and it took me nearly 45 breaths. Factoring in ATMs and I should get about 30 breaths from 33 ft. 20 breaths from 66 ft, and likely at least 10 breaths from 100 fts.

Of course, there are some 7 ft tall 300 lbs divers who would suck this can in less than 10 breaths, but they can also dive with a 40 ft pony tank with out any hassels.

 

[Nemrod]

I am not advocating taking new divers down to 30 feet and having them blow and go--it is a recipe for a fatality. Under a controlled condition starting in the shallow end of the pool should not be a problem but the insurance is not going to cover the instructor I betcha even there.

N

 

[fisherdvm]

Simple math tells me, a 3 cu ft spare air has 85 liters of air. Normal male tidal volume is 500 cc or 1/2 a liter. Normal breaths taken from a spare air should take nearly 160 breaths at the surface.

Of course, the macho guy who wants to prove other wise would use his forced vital volume, which is 5 liter. Even with this maximum breath (not needed for diving), he still would need nearly 16 deep breath to empty the can.

For a woman or child, the spare air could easily give 200 or more breaths at the surface.

Unless my math is wrong, I wonder if we can save alot of the 29 folks who died each year if they had a spare air.

 

[Gombessa]

A failed OOA involving the victim inspiring water and suffering a laryngospam could result in an involuntary CESA with a closed airway.

If involuntary, would it still be be a CESA? Maybe at that point it'd be a noncontrolled emergency spasming ascent?

PADI definitely teaches CESA. Certified a few months ago, and I did at least one mock CESA during one of my CW dives, and an instructor-supervised CESA from 18ft during my last OW cert dive (definitely an interesting experience).

IMO it's *definitely* important to know, though I certainly hope I'm never in a position to need it.