Why do so many poorly skilled divers...

[divinotter]

Comparing DMs to student teachers is like comparing apples to oranges. In 20 years of teaching, many as a ‘master’ teacher not one of my student teachers has been in an extreme environment and no-one ever died from not learning double digit addition. The comparison doesn’t work on several levels. First, Student teaching in no-way ensures a job. Last year we had 200 applications for 1 open teaching position. DMs can DM any time they want. Next, most teachers have taken advanced coursework (i.e. calculus) and most have master’s degrees, but are still not allowed to so much as put on a Band-Aid- we have to send them to the nurse for that, DM’s do give first aid. Last, DMs don’t teach – so why the comparison to teachers in the first place? Also, most people can tell when a student teacher has their first whole class lesson that they will be good or not. There is a certain amount of art to teaching and just like skills in diving, you either get them or you don’t, practice helps a lot, but some people are destined to be awkward in the water or in the classroom. The difference is that when teachers look for jobs, they usually have several letters of recommendation required and those can be carefully worded to make sure they never step into their own classroom. Like, “she is gaining the skill to become a good teacher” as opposed to “I was never hesitant to leave the classroom with her in charge”. DMs don’t get letters or any kind of background checks, etc- they are just thrown in with inexperienced divers and can sometimes create an unsafe situation when a new diver needs their help and they are incapable of giving it-

 

[MikeFerrara]

Sure but it's also relative to the standards of the diving community. The diving community is not made up of DIR folks cave and wreck people, or even the recreational divers who attend these boards. It is made up of the hundreds of thousands of "go for one diving vacation in a lifetime" folks out there who never are going to get beyond the 10 dive mark, let alone go for AOW or Rescue or anything else.



No.

I have no expectation at all that a grade school teacher can explain to me the fundamental theorem of arithmetic, that every non-zero integer can be expressed as a signed product of primes in an essentially unique way. I have no expectation that if told that they could extrapolate the rules of addition.

I do expect them to be relatively capable of grasping it at a level appropriate for the teaching their doing. I don't expect a grade school teacher to explain to me the computational number theory behind the rules of algebra that allow them to say 2+2 =4. Indeed, I don't even expect them to know the associative, distributive and commutative properties of addition by heart. I expect them to be able to convey the information in the book to the students and answer basic questions about straight application correctly most of the time.

What I do expect them to do well is to be able to have the people skills to manage their students well, so that those who are interested in learning have a good time and have an opportunity to learn in a relatively safe environment. Which is pretty much what I expect DM's to do: manage people so that they hear and follow the rules as much as a bunch of yahoos on vacation can be expected to.



Usually no more well than the best students in their class. Ask most grade school teachers to multiply 3 or 4 digit numbers in their heads and they'll fail, but most good 4th graders can do 2 digit numbers in their heads with a little coaching.



In some ways I think so. When the average diver has less than 10 dives, and a DM needs to have 60 to get the card, they have substantially more experience than the average diver.

Now, I agree their skills should be as good as someone with 60 dives can expect to be -- and that falls on the mentoring instructors as well as the DM's to achieve. But just as you have a range of teachers from the barely competent to the really fantastic, so too will you have a range of DM's.

The other side of this coin, from a purely economic perspective, is that DM's are pretty well abused and paid next to nothing. The work conditions and expectations of DM's probably selects out the more competent people, who either go on to instructor very quickly, or let their certs lapse due to a lack of interest in being abused.

You might be right but you aren't making either the schools or the dive industry sound very good.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Comparing DMs to student teachers is like comparing apples to oranges. In 20 years of teaching, many as a ‘master’ teacher not one of my student teachers has been in an extreme environment and no-one ever died from not learning double digit addition.

When i was in the army, a high explosive round went out of safe and off range due to the FDC officer screwing up a simple math problem. it killed a number of trainees on another range. People do die because they can't do simple math.

The comparison doesn’t work on several levels. First, Student teaching in no-way ensures a job. Last year we had 200 applications for 1 open teaching position. DMs can DM any time they want.

Yeah, the want ads are filled with paying jobs for DM's. Sorry, but that's so much bull****. The relative employment opportunities in the field has nothing to do with the aptness of the analogy.

Next, most teachers have taken advanced coursework (i.e. calculus) and most have master’s degrees, but are still not allowed to so much as put on a Band-Aid- we have to send them to the nurse for that, DM’s do give first aid.

You are comparing the relative levels of bureaucracy and process around each field. Again, that has nothing to do with the aptness of an analogy. Also, you're incorrect, most teachers do not have master's degrees. And those that do, most have master's of education which is about pedagogy and not about the field they are teaching. There is nothing to stop Scuba instructors from pursuing similar education if they want it, just as there is nothing to stop teachers from getting a nursing degree if the ability to put on a band-aide is important to them.

Last, DMs don’t teach – so why the comparison to teachers in the first place?

Well, because they do teach. From the PADI Divemaster Manual, 2006 edition, softcover, page 7: ". . . follow PADI Standards as stipulated in the PADI Instructor Manual when assisting with and/or conducting a PADI program."

Chapter 3 of the same manual is titled "Assisting with Student Divers in Training." It goes into points such as how to function as an instructional assistant within the PADI system. On page 84 you'll find that " . . . you'll be qualified as a certified assistant. This means that under PADI standards for specific programs as identified in the PADI Instructor Manual, you will be able to perform specific functions as a teaching assistant . . . "

Chapter 6 of that same book goes into DM conducted programs, such as the snorkeling program, the skin diving program, scuba review, and a few others. In other words, the DM is expected to be able to teach.

So, basically, what I'm pointing out is that you have no idea what you're talking about.

By the way, in learning the art of teaching, did anyone ever explain the paragraph to you?

 

[Kingpatzer]

You might be right but you aren't making either the schools or the dive industry sound very good.

Yeah, well, if the shoe fits . . .

This is completely off-topic, but marginally relevant: I regularly see typed letters from teachers, principals and school board members which contain the most egregious grammatical, spelling and punctuation errors. In raising 4 kids through what is considered one of the best public school system in my state (which ranks in the top 10 in the nation), I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that any adult in the system is anything more than marginally literate.

And don't get me started about having to go to bat for my kid on his science exam because he put there are 8 planets. The teacher wanted 9, and even a letter from my brother-in-law (a research astronomer with NASA) explaining that it is perfectly valid to consider Pluto a Kupier belt object and not a planet, would not sway them that the answer was acceptable.

The message to the good students: being able to think and provide a well-reasoned answer is not important, instead please just parrot what you're told and stop thinking for yourselves!

 

[fisherdvm]

I think the sad fact of the matter here is not that DM's are poor divers, but it is that experienced divers don't want to enter the field. And great instructors (Mike) has left the field.

The consumer (the DM candidates included) demand quick, fast, easy certification. Once they've gotten it, they want to improve on their dive skill. Unfortunately, aside from AOW, Rescue, and other specialty courses, DM seems to be the way to go.

There is also the whole marketing scheme of PADI, and I am sure of SSI also, to push people through the channel AOW to rescue, to DM, then OWSI .... And the process repeats itself.

I probably would not blame the DM's, it is likely the system.

 

[divinotter]

When i was in the army, a high explosive round went out of safe and off range due to the FDC officer screwing up a simple math problem. it killed a number of trainees on another range. People do die because they can't do simple math.

I don't usually respond to playground bullies- but the tragic accident you refer to could have been prevented by someone checking their answers- something we teach at school as well as proper supervision. Also notice your own grammatical errors 'i' is usually capitalized. It's obvious your issues with school go way beyond any comparison to diving. So I will go back reading not posting which is what happens when students are punshed for thinking. Last but not least, have you ever heard of 'The Art of War?" It seems a famous general can use the word 'art' too.

DMs only teach when under supervision, student teachers are evaluated on what they do without help- DM's normally teach very rarely and are most often used as safety divers - usually at no pay and just for free trips so they don't usually read newspaper ads to get 'jobs'

 

[Web Monkey]

Physically fit though brings me to another area of concern for DM's, instructors and the like. I have met too many dive master cadidates who are A. Over weight - B. Smokers - C. Eat horribly unhealthy foods D. Don't exercise and are in pathetic overall physical shape.

I'd rather have an out-of-shape old-fart DM. They tend to want to avoid problems, since rescues require extra exertion.

I don't understand how anyone that is in horrible, horrible shape and a heavy smoker could ever do a successful in-water rescue under extreme conditions.

FWIW, if the DM needs to "rescue" anybody, it means he screwed up when planning or executing the dive.

One person taking my DM course was a smoker and was literally sucking his air tank dry on a 40 minute dive. Pretty sad when the dive master runs out of air before the group he is leading.

PADI promotes the DM class to huge numbers of people who will never work as a DM. The hoover is unlikely to be a problem, and if he is, should improve as he dives more, or can buy bigger tanks.

Terry

 

[Kingpatzer]

DMs only teach when under supervision,

Wrong again. Page 136 of the same book: " . . . once certified there are programs that you'll be able to conduct without direct or indirect supervision of a PADI Instructor."

usually at no pay and just for free trips so they don't usually read newspaper ads to get 'jobs'

Which means that DM's really can't find work quite as readily as you've claimed, doesn't it. If there's no pay involved, it isn't a job.

 

[Web Monkey]

Aquaman...I agree with you completely. As a matter of fact, the SB'er that I mentioned in my post is also obese. How in the world can somone be THAT overweight and be a safe diver?

I don't get it.

I've seen a number of pretty huge divers that are amazingly skilled and graceful underwater.

Size has nothing to do with skill.

Terry

 

[aquaman_06]

I was not speaking to the overall size of the diver; more to the diver's physical condition. Someone who is very overweight is clearly out of shape. As for people who smoke and suck air. Using more air then usual is the most minimal risk for a smoker/diver. I once read an article written by a diving cartiologist. He said, "I give my business card to divers who smoke. They are going to need it sooner or later, if they make it out of the water."