Why do so many poorly skilled divers...

[Kingpatzer]

Hmelon -- that I agree with. "hey look, I'm an assistant to the assistant instructor" doesn't seem like something I'd want to brag about . . . but then, I'm not one yet. Maybe when i finish my class I'll suddenly find the need to get a t-shirt proclaiming my god like underling status.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I simply find the expectation that DM's should be great divers to be confusing.

Do we expect student teachers to be great teachers (or great students for that matter?) or do we expect them to be dedicated to providing quality instruction and to constantly improving their own skills?

A DM course is designed to teach you to supervise. An instructor course is designed to teach you to teach.

So yes, I think a DM should be a GREAT diver. The DM texts will tell you that much but the agencies either don't do as they preach or just have a very very different idea of what a great diver (role model) is.

 

[aquaman_06]

I'm not trying to slam you at all but isn't diving mostly just moving yourself around the water column? What sense does it make to have DM's that aren't just flat out slick at doing so...including finning technique? I don't think divers should be OW certified without being darned good at it and I think a DM should be the picture of perfection. Those things are diving.

-Originally posted by MikeFerrara

Mike,

First off, scuba diving is hard to compare to other outdoor sports where there is a very definitive line between poor, fair, good, great, and expert. I have been around divers who have been diving since the 1960's - who I thought underwater were not very skilled divers but once I got talking to them had an incredibly profound knowledge of the sport.

A lot of scuba expertise, I feel is what a person does out of the water and their knowladge of equipment, dive theory, etc. It's not like snow skiing or mountain biking (two other sports I take part in) where how a person performs on the slopes or trail is overall definitive of their skill level. Scuba isn't as black and white as other sports and I don't feel the best DM or instructor always has the best skills underwater.

I personally don't think a dive master should be some incredibly talented diver that can do cool back-flips, hand stands and more underwater. I do feel that a DM should have better then average skills underwater, be in good physical condition, be able to out swim the majority of recreational divers, and have exceptional awareness and rescue skills. I have been around a lot of dive masters and none of them didn't meet these criteria.

Now as for one persons personal underwater skills: I would assume that anyone would agree that diving like any physical activity is partially made up of actions that are an individual's choice. I use a finning technique that is taught in almost all scuba courses that I feel is insufficient. When I use a finning technique that I find allows me to lower air consumption, move faster, and is just overall more efficient I am told by instructor's that it is not the proper technique. I feel to a certain level any sport, even diving has to have areas where one does what one feels works.

Physically fit though brings me to another area of concern for DM's, instructors and the like. I have met too many dive master cadidates who are A. Over weight - B. Smokers - C. Eat horribly unhealthy foods D. Don't exercise and are in pathetic overall physical shape.

I personally exercise, eat right, keep in shape, etc - etc and feel it's an important part of being a good scuba diver and especially a good DM. I don't smoke and avoid excessive drinking when I am going to be diving or working w/ divers.

I don't understand how anyone that is in horrible, horrible shape and a heavy smoker could ever do a successful in-water rescue under extreme conditions. One person taking my DM course was a smoker and was literally sucking his air tank dry on a 40 minute dive. Pretty sad when the dive master runs out of air before the group he is leading.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think I see some of your points and I'm not saying that a DM or instructor needs to be a world class cave explorer of hold he deep diving record or something but since they are supposed to be the pros and the role models, they should have the basics down pretty well. All too often, that isn't what we see and when we read the agency standards we see that it isn't even asked for.

 

[Hemlon]

Aquaman...I agree with you completely. As a matter of fact, the SB'er that I mentioned in my post is also obese. How in the world can somone be THAT overweight and be a safe diver?

I don't get it.

 

[Florabama]

It's a good question. The answer, IMO, boils down to the question of what defines good skill. I think it's a slippery slope that starts with the agencies. Then the lds, and individuals hold some responsibility as well, but it's hard to blame an individual who was never trained correctly to begin with in OW class. How does he/she "know" they are not skilled if they have never been trained properly?

First, many agencies sell "easy certification" programs. I liken it to the karate shops that take students to "black belt" in a couple of months without ever having to actually fight. Students roughly demonstrate karate skills in the classroom, yell real loud and look mean, and walla, they are black belts in karate. As soon as they have to actually use those skills in real life, they find out how inadequately they were trained.

Same with advanced scuba programs. For many agencies and shops, it's just a way to make a buck. The easier for the student to "pass," the easier for the shop and agency to sell more programs.

With the rise in popularity of scuba diving, more people want to be leadership. They are going from OW to Instructor in just a few weeks without ever having to demonstrate skills in real life.
When I first took OW classes back in '67, my instruction was equivalent to what passes for Advanced certification today. After 40 years of diving, I am finally getting my DM and Instructor certifications. While I'm more skilled than most, I still have a lot to learn even after 40 years of active diving. I am gratefull that the LDS I'm using forces DMs to gain all the required skills before becoming certified.

 

[Kingpatzer]

A DM course is designed to teach you to supervise. An instructor course is designed to teach you to teach.

Except that in every agency, you must pass through DM on your way to assistant instructor and instructor (well NAUI has AI = DM but the progression's the same even if the names are changed).

So what you get are people who would like to teach diving in their local quarry going through the DM course.

And, a DM is expected to shlep gear, set up tanks, etc., no diving skill is required for that.

I'm not saying they should have no skill as a diver, but the idea that hundreds of dives should be required is just silly. If we had that same standard for assistant instructors in other fields, no one would ever end up teaching.

I still say the most important skill for a DM is being able to keep the kid's chocolate covered hands off the wet suits while their mother writes a check for the bubblemaker course. In other words, it's more about people skills than about diving skills for DM's.

We don't expect grade school teachers to have PhD's in mathematics, or even to be able to handle multi-variant calculus. We expect them to be able to teach someone who doesn't know how to add and subtract how to get up to division and multiplication.

Expecting DM's to be the pinnacle of diving skill is unrealistic. The very best divers aren't going to be interested in schlepping tanks for the once-a-year-go-for-a-walk-on-the-reef crowd.

 

[The Horn]

What is the point of a DM anyway? Perhaps it is because up north here there is not many charters that have them. Usually it is a boat, driver and assistant. Dive on your own. If your more familliar with the site you explain the pit falls to the rest of the group. The skipper will make a pitch about conditions as well.

DM? Why? A Rescue certed diver assisting an instructor should be fine. If it is a huge class then that is silly.

how many here did OW dives with just an instructor? how many had a DM with the instructor and no shore support? Lots and lots can raise thier hand.

A DM as a supervisor...fine...but a Rescue diver should also be supervising, that was in the training......and any other diver should be "supervising" thier buddy.

There are WAY to many certification levels, "specialties" etc it is just plain stupid!

Will it change? NO, not one bit, the big brother ops will not stand to loose the cash.....DM dues? What the heck is that for....$$ grubbing.

To say a diver is a diver is a diver is wrong. some will always be better than others. Same with instruction or teaching. Some people a re leaders others follow....thats life.

The fact that DM certification has some uber status is in the mind of the DM. Anybody worth doing the job was probably doing already without the Cert anyway.

Giving information about a dive site, helping gear up, planning a dive ro leading a group underwater does not take a DM card whatsoever, what it takes is some planning, being a good buddy, a responsible diver and situational awareness.

Why is there so many terrible DM's: Because the Cert is there.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'm not saying they should have no skill as a diver, but the idea that hundreds of dives should be required is just silly. If we had that same standard for assistant instructors in other fields, no one would ever end up teaching.

I think that demonstrated skill is independant of the number of dives in their log book.

We don't expect grade school teachers to have PhD's in mathematics, or even to be able to handle multi-variant calculus.

But aren't they expected to have a grasp of the material that they are teaching?

We expect them to be able to teach someone who doesn't know how to add and subtract how to get up to division and multiplication.

the teacher can multiply and devide, right?

Expecting DM's to be the pinnacle of diving skill is unrealistic. The very best divers aren't going to be interested in schlepping tanks for the once-a-year-go-for-a-walk-on-the-reef crowd.

Maybe you've brought us to the root of the problem here. All things are relative and someone who can kneel well is probably a great diver compared to someone who hasn't quite mastered kneeling yet...so we have those who walk on the reef well and those who don't walk on the reef so well.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I think that demonstrated skill is independant of the number of dives in their log book.

Sure but it's also relative to the standards of the diving community. The diving community is not made up of DIR folks cave and wreck people, or even the recreational divers who attend these boards. It is made up of the hundreds of thousands of "go for one diving vacation in a lifetime" folks out there who never are going to get beyond the 10 dive mark, let alone go for AOW or Rescue or anything else.

But aren't they expected to have a grasp of the material that they are teaching?

No.

I have no expectation at all that a grade school teacher can explain to me the fundamental theorem of arithmetic, that every non-zero integer can be expressed as a signed product of primes in an essentially unique way. I have no expectation that if told that they could extrapolate the rules of addition.

I do expect them to be relatively capable of grasping it at a level appropriate for the teaching their doing. I don't expect a grade school teacher to explain to me the computational number theory behind the rules of algebra that allow them to say 2+2 =4. Indeed, I don't even expect them to know the associative, distributive and commutative properties of addition by heart. I expect them to be able to convey the information in the book to the students and answer basic questions about straight application correctly most of the time.

What I do expect them to do well is to be able to have the people skills to manage their students well, so that those who are interested in learning have a good time and have an opportunity to learn in a relatively safe environment. Which is pretty much what I expect DM's to do: manage people so that they hear and follow the rules as much as a bunch of yahoos on vacation can be expected to.

the teacher can multiply and devide, right?

Usually no more well than the best students in their class. Ask most grade school teachers to multiply 3 or 4 digit numbers in their heads and they'll fail, but most good 4th graders can do 2 digit numbers in their heads with a little coaching.

Maybe you've brought us to the root of the problem here. All things are relative and someone who can kneel well is probably a great diver compared to someone who hasn't quite mastered kneeling yet...so we have those who walk on the reef well and those who don't walk on the reef so well.

In some ways I think so. When the average diver has less than 10 dives, and a DM needs to have 60 to get the card, they have substantially more experience than the average diver.

Now, I agree their skills should be as good as someone with 60 dives can expect to be -- and that falls on the mentoring instructors as well as the DM's to achieve. But just as you have a range of teachers from the barely competent to the really fantastic, so too will you have a range of DM's.

The other side of this coin, from a purely economic perspective, is that DM's are pretty well abused and paid next to nothing. The work conditions and expectations of DM's probably selects out the more competent people, who either go on to instructor very quickly, or let their certs lapse due to a lack of interest in being abused.