Why did Horse Collar BC's fade away?

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is is true that a modern jacket type BCS will drown it's wearer if he/she is unconscious?
I don't know horse BCD, so I cannot compare them with modern tools firsthand.

But if a modern BCD is drowning someone, that person is using it wrong. Correctly used, you'll float forever.

BTW, modern BCDs aren't only jacket style; there exist also backplate+wing BCD types.

Dive safe :)
 
This probably because they are overweighted and have to have a lot of extra air in the BC.
Oooh. So you don't take much gas (if OC) or bailout gas (if CCR) nor heavy reels and self-inflating SMB. Or like to have plenty of insulating air in your drysuit for warmth.

Overweighting is very much a subtle thing. Can measure it in grams if in warm waters with a single tank; not so if cold and challenging diving.
 
I don't know horse BCD, so I cannot compare them with modern tools firsthand.

But if a modern BCD is drowning someone, that person is using it wrong. Correctly used, you'll float forever.

BTW, modern BCDs aren't only jacket style; there exist also backplate+wing BCD types.

Dive safe :)
Depends. (Condition, not the adult diaper.)

With air on your back, that's the side that wants to go "up" when in equilibrium. That means it wants to tump the diver face-side "down". At least PW and back-inflate ones. Can be done, but it's not the most stable and requires active input from the diver. An unconscious diver may likely need attending to keep that from happening if it's not smooth and they just stay in an unstable balance. Waves, wind, sharks with lasers, just can't guarantee...

Keep in mind though, floating on the surface is not the purpose of the BCD. It can sorta be used as such, but not the primary, designed purpose.

But you are right. Unless the BCD were punctured or otherwise compromised, the diver would tend to float forever, at least the body.
 
Oooh. So you don't take much gas (if OC) or bailout gas (if CCR) nor heavy reels and self-inflating SMB. Or like to have plenty of insulating air in your drysuit for warmth.

Overweighting is very much a subtle thing. Can measure it in grams if in warm waters with a single tank; not so if cold and challenging diving.
You said both "cold" and "diving" in the same sentence.

Those things are mutually exclusive.
 
It’s hard to say if newer designs are better or if they are just newer and different. I’m no expert but this is my take on it.
Before any formal BC devices, divers were constantly experimenting with how to deal with the problems of wetsuit compression and gas loss from the tank.
The horse collar was kind of a makeshift solution to the growing problem. It was a borrowed device from another realm, it wasn’t originally designed specifically to be a BC device for scuba diving. The later models that were adapted to scuba were still based on an inflatable life jacket.
The cold water that divers were venturing into (innovation of thick wetsuits) made bigger buoyancy problems combined with the development of larger tanks becoming available. All this created a need for a reliable and convenient buoyancy control solution.
There was also the growing interest in diving by the general public and more organized instruction, more resorts opening up around the world. Diving was being opened up to a wider cross section of the public, not just a handful of ex military divers and hardcore sportsmen and adventure types.
All this sparked more innovation with manufacturers and this about the time the stab jacket came out. It was a convenient solution to BC control in an all-in-one type of unit. The tank straps onto the jacket and you jump in, very simple.
They might not have been ideal but they were convenient and easy to train people in and they took off. Within a few years every company was making their own version of a jacket style bc.
Then weight integration came in to make it even more of an all-in-one unit by getting rid of weightbelts.
Horse collars were awkward for the general public to use. The tank had to be separate on a plastic pack with straps, the horse collar was this big stuffy thing also with straps on your front side. You had to use a weightbelt which fought with the pull of the horse collar and made it a challenge to stay flat. If you were using a larger steel tank it was quite a balancing act not to turtle with the air cell on your frontside wanting to go up fighting with the weight of the tank wanting to go down.
The jacket solved a lot of these problems but also created a new set of problems, or compromises.
Jackets didn’t hold the tank to your body as well as back packs and with all that fabric, the tank flops around. They also add a lot of inherent buoyancy that needs more weight added to offset.

The only innovation that has gone further is the Back Plate and Wing, but it is still considered a “niche” product and while they are gaining popularity with a small group they are still considered fringe. BP/W gives you the best of both worlds, the stability of a back plate (back pack) combined with buoyancy compensation.
People have figured out how to keep from face planting on the surface while using them. First, don’t overweight yourself requiring a lot of air in the wing at the surface to keep from sinking, use a heavy plate in cold water, and use heavy steel tanks. The weight of the plate and steel tank behind you will counter the lift of the wing which should not have much or any gas in it on the surface. Also, in the last 20 years, divers have become more savvy in learning how to distribute weight and fine tune trim, which didn’t seem to be a thing back in the day.
A lot has changed.

However, jackets still rule the general diving world and probably will for a very long time to come.
Nice story, but a bit inaccurate. Back plate and wing predated the jacket by some years. It was considered obsolete when the jackets did take off...
Then, as many "vintage" techniques, it has been re-evaluated.
I still own and use a plastic back plate plus wing which predated the "modern" jackets.
Here you see the 1977 Scubapro catalog featuring an horse collar BCD and a BP+wing...
No jacket yet, it arrived a couple of years later. Please have also a look on pages 16-17 to that integrated Scubasystem device, which did merge the tank and the buoyancy control device inside a n ice, streamlined fiberglass shell.
 
Assuming equivalent single tank rec setups, are horse collars actually noticeably less drag than a properly configured BPW? I imagine trim would be harder.

If anyone wants an old crusty horse collar (early 80's? era, power inflator + hilarious co2 ripcord, can't remember brand maybe sportsways) I have one I would give away as-is not tested for the cost of shipping. Is there a market for these things or is it trash?
 
The basic answer would be that there are better options. When you look at the totality of the dive industry, they gravitate to back plates and vests. If there was a market large enough to make a profit on a HC, you would still find them in most dive shops. Regardless of what you may list as the positives for using a HC, the average diver wants nothing to do with them, so they went away. The same holds true for just about all dive gear. Once something is introduced that is much better on a wide scale over what is currently offered, the older item fizzles out and is eventually replaced. I remember purchasing the Scubapro stab jacket when it was first introduced and then later purchased the double blue. I have not used a HC since those days and have no reason to return to HC.
 
Assuming equivalent single tank rec setups, are horse collars actually noticeably less drag than a properly configured BPW? I imagine trim would be harder.

If anyone wants an old crusty horse collar (early 80's? era, power inflator + hilarious co2 ripcord, can't remember brand maybe sportsways) I have one I would give away as-is not tested for the cost of shipping. Is there a market for these things or is it trash?
The horse collar was typically kept empty, except in an emergency Hence an empty horse collar produces less drag than a partially filled wing.
If one was overweight and needed to keep air in an horse collar, the trim was very adversely affected and swimming horizontally was very difficult (ascending vertically was easy, indeed).
 
Well! There are some comments here about Horse Collars that are just wrong, maybe because of a lack of actual experience with one! For instance, I dove for many years with a Horse Collar and twin 72's. The weight of my gear was pretty close to my own body weight. I never flipped belly up or even felt like I was going to! I never knew anyone else who did either. It just didn't happen.

Furthermore: If the diver is wearing a "modern" BCD and if there is no input from the diver or his/her buddies and that diver is unconscious, that diver will drown. Oh sure he'll float for a long time but he'll be DRT. (Dead Right There) It's simple physics. Put the flotation on the back and they will float face down.

Newer does not always mean better. Like I asked in the beginning: What can a new type jacket BCD do better besides have more pockets and attachment points? So far, the answer seems to be nothing. Oh sure, it's easier to don and take off. It has less straps to put on than a comparable Horse Collar set up. What else? Ahhh nothing??!

Ok, I'm probably biased. I trained with the Horse Collar BC and am familiar with it's quirks and habits. I experimented three times with the jacket type BCD and disliked it so much that I will refuse to dive if that's all that's available. The fact that a jacket type BCD will put you face down in the water (without any input from you) is a pretty strong motivator. Regardless, everybody has their preferences and I won't dig on anybody who does it their way. I still have hope though!!! I saw an ad that said the flip phone was making a comeback!

For those who asked if a Horse Collar BC was acceptable as a life jacket: I had to cross Choctawhatchee Bay to get to the Gulf way back in the 70's. It was normal to get stopped by the Marine Patrol for a safety inspection. As soon as they saw our diving gear, they cleared us because they considered the Horse Collar BC as good as a life jacket. Like I said in the beginning: My girlfreind and I floated for over an hour in a raging squall waiting for the boat to find us. We floated on our backs, kept all of our gear on and actually enjoyed it...after we were back on the boat!! The point is that we were pretty relaxed and didn't have to do anything except breath because we were wearing Horse Collar BC,s. Sure, I think we would have survived just as well if we were wearing jacket type BCd's but we'd have had to work at it instead of just relaxing.
 
The basic answer would be that there are better options. When you look at the totality of the dive industry, they gravitate to back plates and vests. If there was a market large enough to make a profit on a HC, you would still find them in most dive shops. Regardless of what you may list as the positives for using a HC, the average diver wants nothing to do with them, so they went away. The same holds true for just about all dive gear. Once something is introduced that is much better on a wide scale over what is currently offered, the older item fizzles out and is eventually replaced. I remember purchasing the Scubapro stab jacket when it was first introduced and then later purchased the double blue. I have not used a HC since those days and have no reason to return to HC.
Like tables?
 

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